Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote:
> While there are second choices in the file I sent, my idea was to
> avoid implementing them and let the user use custom quotes when he
> wants a non-standard style. I'd say this will be enough.
That means one language specific quotation mark (no choice for that).
That's fine with me.
> >> - use a hardcoded type which will never change after the quote has
> >> been inserted (this is what we have now)
>
> Juergen> OK, I thought we won't allow this anymore. But I admit this
> Juergen> is probably too restrictive. How should we deal with this?
> Juergen> Should we add a second choice "Hardcoded Quotes" in
> Document? Juergen> An Easier solution would be to merge Point 1 and
> 2: (1.) The Juergen> quotation mark style in the Document popup is
> hardcoded and Juergen> won't change (as it is now). It is independent
> from the Juergen> language of the document. (2.) Additionally we have
> a Juergen> language dependent quotation mark style in the Character
> Juergen> popup. If I change the language of a paragraph, the
> quotation Juergen> mark style changes, too.
>
> I have a different idea now. The user would choose either Language
> default or custom quotes (as outlined above), and one would have a
> check box "hardcode quotes" (or whatever) so that the quote is set
> explicitely in the document and is not affected by subsequent
> language/quotes changes. This checkbox could be either in prefs or
> document layout (probably prefs).
I'd vote for document layout. But I have no strong arguments. Perhaps
because it's rather document specific IMHO. And it's easier to access.
> The choice of custom/language quotes should be done separately for
> the two kind of quotes (so that the user can choose to use the
> alternative quotes either for inner quoting or anything he sees fit).
>
> Juergen> But then we need different key bindings. E.g.: - " sets
> Juergen> hardcoded quotation marks (single or double, opening or
> Juergen> closing) the way it uses to do now. - Ctrl+q sets language
> Juergen> dependent double quotes, Alt+q sets language dependend
> single Juergen> quotes, opening and closing follows the same rule as
> Juergen> hardcoded quotes.
>
> No, rather " for normal quotes and M-" (or C-") for alternative
> quotes.
I don't like the terms "normal quote" and alternative quote. See below.
> >> For each of these, the right quote and left quote can be set
> >> separately (a quote <<like that'' is stupid but possible, for
> >> example).
>
> Juergen> Very stupid IMHO. But possible with the above proposal.
>
> The idea is that different languages have very weird ideas of what
> left and right quotes can be, so we should offer maximal flexibility.
OK. But we need another option then? If I can only chose "hardcoded" OR
"language specific/ custom" I have to set opening and closing quotes
separately (see below)?
> >> - maybe something indicating that there is space on the left or on
> >> the right (this is useful for french)
>
> Juergen> On the screen display side? Or do you want an option where
> Juergen> the user can set this? (E.g.: "Separate quotation mark from
> Juergen> quotation: ____ [em]")
>
> No, the latex output would just have a space and babel takes care of
> putting the right kind of space there.
OK.
> Juergen> In Preferences->Language, you can chose one of the language
> Juergen> specific quotation marks (if there are more than one) as
> Juergen> default (I think this should be done there and saved in the
> Juergen> lyxrc file).
>
> See above. I'd rather try to keep things simple (unless people tell
> me that the two kind of quotes are equally used).
OK.
> >> Then Pref->language should be able to change settings for _any_
> >> language, which is not the case now AFAIK.
>
> Juergen> I do not understand this. Isn't it possible to chose any
> Juergen> language there and set the default quotation mark?
>
> I think the misunderstanding is related to my previous remark...
Yes, I think so.
> Juergen> I have deleted the "single" and "double" checkboxes, as they
> Juergen> become obsolete IMHO if you can access them directly via
> Juergen> keyboard.
>
> >> No, because you have two types of quotes, which are not
> >> necessarily in double/single pair. For example, french would be <<
> >> a quote ``and another one'' >>
>
> Juergen> I see. But that's only true for the "hardcoded quotes". The
> Juergen> language specific quotes can be chosen with Ctlr+q (double)
> Juergen> and Alt+q (single). So we need this (back) in the Document
> Juergen> popup.
>
> My proposal is to replace double/single semantics with
> normal/alternative.
I do not like this. I think single and double is much more clear, or
probably I do not understand what you intend with this terms. For me,
single and double is pretty clear. But what is normal? Is a double
quote normal? Maybe in some languages or for some users single quotes
are normal. You have to declare that you understand double quotes as
normal quotes then. So why not just call it by their look? Or is a
language specific quote normal?
> >> I knw that what I am proposing is rather complicated (in terms of
> >> GUI and implementation), so tell me if it is overdone, and I'll
> >> gladly simplify it :)
>
> Juergen> Well, it's indeed not easy (and we have to take care that it
> Juergen> is not too much for the user). Let me summarize and tell me
> Juergen> if that would be o.k.:
>
> Juergen> (1.) Preferences: set the language default quotation marks
> Juergen> (if there is more than one possibility). Like it is in my
> Juergen> proposed new Preferences dialog.
>
> In what I propose it would be
>
> (1.) Preferences: add a checkbox [ ] hardcode quotes. One might argue
> that this pref is not useful, but we will have to handle hardcoded
> quotes from older documents anyway. And hardcoing quotes is useful
> when one wants more than two styles of quotes.
OK (but maybe in Document).
> Juergen> (2.) Document: chose the style of the hardcoded quotes which
> Juergen> will be accessed by the "-key. I wouldn't add a "Language
> Juergen> Default" option here, because this is irritating if they
> Juergen> won't change after a language change. (2a) [Not shure] Add a
> Juergen> second possibility to select the language specific quotation
> Juergen> marks (either default or custom), which will be accessed by
> Juergen> Ctlr+q and Alt+q. Those can be changed for single paragraphs
> Juergen> in the Character popup.
>
> This would be:
>
> for each of "normal" and "alternative" quote:
> have a choice of language default/custom
> have a way to define what a custom quote would be
Why not like this:
--Quotation Marks-------------------------------------------
Double Quotes: [ ] language specific
[ ] custom opening: [choice] closing: [choice]
Single Quotes: [ ] language specific
[ ] custom opening: [choice] closing: [choice]
---------------------------------------------------------------
> Juergen> (3.) Character: Set the language specific quotation marks
> for Juergen> single paragraphs (either default or custom) which will
> be Juergen> accessed by Ctlr+q and Alt+q. These quotation marks
> change if Juergen> the language changes.
>
> I do not see the point of this. First, if it is for 'single
> paragraph', it should be in the paragraph popup. Then, this would
> mean this info is stored in the document at chgaracter level? This is
> more ambitious that what I had in mind. Do we need that?
The problem is that we define the language for single paragraphs/ parts
of the document in Character, not in Paragraph. And the quotation mark
choice belongs to the language choice IMHO.
Furthermore: If I have a german text and have an english quotation
there, I might want to use the language specific (=english) quotation
marks too (the leading german encyclopedia recommends this!). So if a
have a document with multiple languages and I want language specific
quotation marks, what should I do? If we have only the Document
settings, the quotation marks of the main language (as defined in
Document) are valid. The alternative is to chose hardcoded quotes, but
then I cannot use the smart way. That is my idea. We would need of
course "language specific", "custom" and "document specific" or
something like that there. I don't know if this is overdone, though
(but it's of course not more overdone than defining opening and closing
quotes ;-).
> Juergen> Does this sound (more) sensible?
>
> We are going to converge. Soon :)
>
> Feel free to disagree with me. I am myself trying to make up my mind
> while arguing.
It's not a problem of disagreeing. It's a problem of understanding. But
I think it's getting better ;-)
J�rgen.
> JMarc
