Gordon, Apple's hardware is not for debate here, it is second to none and there is nothing on the pC side that even comes close to the Mac line in my opinion. Yes, Apple did us a huge favour in bringing build in accessibility. Does it have to end there though?
The majority of falling PC sales are due to the increased interest in tablets and large screen phones. Macs still fortunately have their loyal customers, and you have to add that the Macbook Air is a wonderful laptop to own to run both Windows and OS X. We actually have those laptops to run Windows on. As an organisation we would not consider the mac for much else, as Microsoft office accessibility is just not there (and this is not solely down to Apple). Is it so wrong to expect more from Apple? we pay for the hardware and software and come on, it is 2013! Windows is fortunate to have various screen readers, the Mac only has one, so why can't it support high end products and enable more productivity? I guess I require more from my Mac, than just using Skype, Text Edit and basic audio editing. Chris On 22 Jul 2013, at 19:04, Gordon Smith <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi John > > Very well taken. You an I know only too well that some of the presumptuous > statements in this thread are way off the mark. I won't say more because I'd > head for trouble if I did. But although I do have some issues with Apple, > come on, just look at the big picture. Just look at what Microsoft is now > doing with Skype! Some of the features which used to be free now have to be > paid for. You may say that isn't on topic with accessibility and you'd be > right. But I'm trying to make the point that it's the tip of the ice burg. > Furthermore, have you noticed any real accessibility improvements lately on > any platform within the Skype domain? > > I'm not going to et into a my toy's better than yours dispute and I urge > others not too since it would take them off topic for this group. But let's > be realistic about this. Remember that Apple did the accessibility industry > a huge huge favour from the consumer's perspective by adding accessibility > right out of the box to their desktop, notebook and mobile products. Just > look at the price drops within some of the Windows vendors' products > recently, for instance. It is no coincidence folks, those price drops were > driven by market forces. Visually impaired people are joining the Apple > fraternity in their droves. The accessibility developers and dealers whose > products rely on other platforms are doing their very best to compete with > Apple, and they are frequently starting false rumours. Why? It's obvious > really, some of them are running scared. Apple represents a significant > number of consumers who have deserted the more traditional accessibility > platforms. Why? Well let's just sum it up by a statement made by Oscar > Wilde, suitably modified to fit within current context: > To lose one customer is understandable. To lose a thousand seems like > carelessness. :) > > Yes, I have my issues with Apple. I made that clear in my post of about half > an hour ago. But I will never again clutter up my bench space with hardware > which cannot be serviced without paying several dealers and developers > grossly inflated fees for what is, after all, an inferior product. > > Kind regards > > <--- Gordon Smith ---> > > <[email protected]> > > Telephone: > > United Kingdom: Free Phone: > 0800 8620538 > > Mobile: > +44 7907 823971 > > Europe and other non-specified: > +44 1642 688095 > > United States Of America And Canada: > +1 646 9151493 > Or: > +1 209 436 9443 > > Vic. Australia: > +61 38 8205930 > Vic. Australia > +61 39 0284505 > > Fax: > +44 1642 365123 > > Follow Us On Twitter: > <http://twitter.com/maciosaccess> > > Skype: > <skype:mac-access-dot-net?call> > > ------------------------------ > > On 20 Jul 2013, at 19:28, John Panarese <[email protected]> wrote: > >> OK, maybe I am missing something here, but I am reading some of the most >> ridiculous and assumption ridden posts in this thread. How in the world can >> you say the Mac is half-baked? The Mac is just as accessible as Windows at >> this point, and for whatever weaknesses you can point out in OS X, I can >> equally find in Windows. I know blind people productively using the Mac >> every day for their work, and I can give you several testimonials from >> former Windows users who will flat out tell you that Mac accessibility is >> superior to that in Windows hands down. I just had this conversation with a >> client who is a former JAWS user who was using Windows since 1994 and still >> uses Windows because he paid for a SMA. >> >> In any event, to assume Apple is done with accessibility or has done so to >> legally get by is a generally opinionated statement that has no factual or >> concrete evidence beyond personal belief. How far the Mac has come since >> Tiger, including Lion to Mountain Lion, is proof enough, and if it’s not >> satisfactory enough to you, that is your problem and not a general >> reflection of the state of accessibility among most blind Mac users. Is it >> perfect? Of course not. I can list the flaws as readily as anyone else, >> especially since I train folks to use the Mac every day. However, as I >> said, I can list just as many in Windows, if not more in some regard. Also, >> well, show me an operating system the blind can use with perfection. We >> can go on and on about our accessibility gripes about every operating >> system, but in many cases, the reality does not truly reflect our narrow >> world views of things. >> >> >> >> Take Care >> >> John D. Panarese >> Director >> Mac for the Blind >> Tel, (631) 724-4479 >> Email, [email protected] >> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com >> >> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION >> >> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE >> >> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT >> >> >> >> >> On Jul 20, 2013, at 6:31 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Chris, >>> >>> Just to be clear I think they've done a stellar job on IOS. Sure there are >>> things I'd like to see, things I'd have done differently; but that applies >>> to my own development work (in retrospect) as well. >>> >>> The reality is that four and a half years after iWork 09 was released, it >>> is still lacking in what I would consider to be basic accessibility and, >>> more importantly, usability. People like Anne Robertson (on this list) >>> have come up with workarounds to get past issues that t we really shouldn't >>> have to be working around. With every new update I hope that some new >>> features will be introduced, but more importantly I want longstanding bugs >>> to have gone away. Neither happens. >>> >>> Like you, I've stopped recommending the mac for anyone other than those who >>> want a glorified mediaplayer. It is not a productivity machine at this >>> stage. >>> >>> Dónal >>> On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:25, Chris Moore <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> I agree, Mac OS X accessibility sucks. iOS is far superior and the Mac is >>>> half baked and very buggy. I could never recommend the Mac as a >>>> productive tool for the blind. >>>> >>>> I don't think we should give up though, we need to keep up the pressure. >>>> We also need to shame Apple by bringing it to the attention of mainstream >>>> press Let's try and convince someone to publish an article on how crap >>>> Voiceover is on the Mac. We only ever seem to get a slight update each >>>> time a new OS comes out. >>>> >>>> We need to keep making a noise and more of it. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> On 20 Jul 2013, at 11:08, Dónal Fitzpatrick <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Chris, >>>>> >>>>> Dealing with both your mails in one here. I wholeheartedly agree. I've >>>>> been convinced for almost 2 years that Apple sees their job in terms of >>>>> accessibility for the blind, specifically on OSX but to a lesser extent >>>>> on IOS, as done. They can walk into any courtroom and claim, with >>>>> justification, that they are in compliance with ADA, section 508, EU >>>>> disability legislation etc. Afraid in my view OSX accessibility is dying >>>>> on the vine so we may as well accept that what we have now is as good as >>>>> it's going to get. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, >>>>> >>>>> Dónal >>>>> On 20 Jul 2013, at 06:31, "Chris Gilland" <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> And, though I cannot go into the specifics due to NDA, I'll say this, >>>>>> and under no circumstances anything more. I've reported through bug >>>>>> reporter many many bugs as I'm an Apple Dev both for IOS and for OSX. >>>>>> In both cases a lot of the bugs had to do with things in IOS7 and in >>>>>> Mavericks both which are broken accessibility wise. Again, I can't >>>>>> legally reveal what these things are, but the response I finally got >>>>>> back directly from engineering, was something to the effect of we know >>>>>> about this bug, however, what you are experiencing is exactly the way >>>>>> it's supposed to behave, so learn how to deal with it. Excuse me, but I >>>>>> paid 100 dollars to become a dev, not a person whom won't be listen to! >>>>>> Frankly, I'm almost ready to give engineering a piece of my mind! >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah k Alawami" <[email protected]> >>>>>> To: "Mac OSX & iOS Accessibility" <[email protected]> >>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 19, 2013 1:41 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: Logic Pro X accessibility: the view from Cupertino >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It's the same canned response I received with GB as well. In fact I >>>>>> doubt they will continue to improve accessibility in GB as I have not >>>>>> ten no more responses even through the bug tracker I use. >>>>>> On Jul 19, 2013, at 9:29 AM, Josh Gregory <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> This reminds me of humanware, LOL. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 19, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Dónal Fitzpatrick >>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Well this is truly helpful! Really Apple accessibility customer care >>>>>>>> (or whatever the PR gurus call them these days) have excelled >>>>>>>> themselves. See the reply in its entirety below: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Does my sarcasm come across? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dónal >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (message starts) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>> Thank you for your email. At this time, support for accessibility in >>>>>>>> Logic Pro X is limited. We are continuing to work on improving >>>>>>>> accessibility. We appreciate your feedback while we work towards this >>>>>>>> goal. >>>>>>>> Apple Accessibility >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (message ends) >>>>>>>> Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, >>>>>>>> School of Computing, >>>>>>>> Dublin City University, >>>>>>>> Glasnevin, >>>>>>>> Dublin 9, Ireland >>>>>>>> Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 >>>>>>>> fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 >>>>>>>> email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Email Disclaimer >>>>>>>> "This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and >>>>>>>> are intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised >>>>>>>> dissemination, distribution or copying of this message and any >>>>>>>> attachments is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail >>>>>>>> in error, please notify the sender and delete the message. Any views >>>>>>>> or opinions presented in this e-mail may solely be the views of the >>>>>>>> author and cannot be relied upon as being those of Dublin City >>>>>>>> University. E-mail communications such as this cannot be guaranteed to >>>>>>>> be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and Dublin City University >>>>>>>> does not accept liability for any such matters or their consequences. >>>>>>>> Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access >>>>>>>> forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/>. >>>>>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.xml> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to >>>>>>>> ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, >>>>>>>> Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace >>>>>>>> your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor >>>>>>>> responsibility should something unpredictable happen. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access >>>>>>> forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/>. >>>>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.xml> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>>>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>>>>>> and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>>>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should >>>>>>> something unpredictable happen. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>>> >>>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access >>>>>> forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/>. >>>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.xml> >>>>>> >>>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>>>>> and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should >>>>>> something unpredictable happen. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>>> >>>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> >>>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access >>>>>> forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/>. >>>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.xml> >>>>>> >>>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>>>>> and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should >>>>>> something unpredictable happen. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>> >>>>> Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, >>>>> School of Computing, >>>>> Dublin City University, >>>>> Glasnevin, >>>>> Dublin 9, Ireland >>>>> Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 >>>>> fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 >>>>> email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie >>>>> >>>>> Email Disclaimer >>>>> "This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are >>>>> intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, >>>>> distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly >>>>> prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the >>>>> sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this >>>>> e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as >>>>> being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this >>>>> cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and >>>>> Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or >>>>> their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this >>>>> e-mail." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>>> >>>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>>> [email protected] >>>>> >>>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>>>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/>. >>>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.xml> >>>>> >>>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus >>>>> and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should >>>>> something unpredictable happen. >>>>> >>>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>>> visiting the list website at: >>>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>>>> >>>> >>>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>>> >>>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>>> [email protected] >>>> >>>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/>. >>>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.xml> >>>> >>>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and >>>> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something >>>> unpredictable happen. >>>> >>>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>>> visiting the list website at: >>>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >>> >>> Dr. Dónal Fitzpatrick, >>> School of Computing, >>> Dublin City University, >>> Glasnevin, >>> Dublin 9, Ireland >>> Tel. +353-(0)1-700-8929 >>> fax: +353-(0)1-700-5442 >>> email: dfitzpat (at) computing.dcu.ie >>> >>> Email Disclaimer >>> "This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and are >>> intended solely for use by the addressee. Any unauthorised dissemination, >>> distribution or copying of this message and any attachments is strictly >>> prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the >>> sender and delete the message. Any views or opinions presented in this >>> e-mail may solely be the views of the author and cannot be relied upon as >>> being those of Dublin City University. E-mail communications such as this >>> cannot be guaranteed to be virus-free, timely, secure or error-free and >>> Dublin City University does not accept liability for any such matters or >>> their consequences. Please consider the environment before printing this >>> e-mail." >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >>> >>> To reply to this post, please address your message to >>> [email protected] >>> >>> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum >>> at either the list's own dedicated web archive: >>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >>> or at the public Mail Archive: >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/>. >>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.xml> >>> >>> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure >>> that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and >>> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >>> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something >>> unpredictable happen. >>> >>> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >>> visiting the list website at: >>> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >> >> >> Take Care >> >> John D. Panarese >> Director >> Mac for the Blind >> Tel, (631) 724-4479 >> Email, [email protected] >> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com >> >> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX Mountain Lion and LION >> >> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE >> >> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT >> >> >> >> >> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> >> >> To reply to this post, please address your message to >> [email protected] >> >> You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at >> either the list's own dedicated web archive: >> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> >> or at the public Mail Archive: >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/>. >> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.xml> >> >> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that >> the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and >> worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security >> strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something >> unpredictable happen. >> >> Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by >> visiting the list website at: >> <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> >> > > <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> > > To reply to this post, please address your message to > [email protected] > > You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at > either the list's own dedicated web archive: > <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> > or at the public Mail Archive: > <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/>. > Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: > <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.xml> > > As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that > the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and > worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security > strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something > unpredictable happen. > > Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by > visiting the list website at: > <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/> > <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net ---> To reply to this post, please address your message to [email protected] You can find an archive of all messages posted to the Mac-Access forum at either the list's own dedicated web archive: <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html> or at the public Mail Archive: <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/>. Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from: <http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.xml> As the Mac Access Dot Net administrators, we do our very best to ensure that the Mac-Access E-Mal list remains malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and worm-free. However, this should in no way replace your own security strategy. We assume neither liability nor responsibility should something unpredictable happen. Please remember to update your membership preferences periodically by visiting the list website at: <http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/>
