Hello all, I have to support Rich here. The attitude displayed by many Mac users toward Windows, and toward Windows users who are doing their best to learn the Mac OS is frankly despicable. Many mac users--definitely not all--are nothing more than a bunch of narrow-minded snobs. Windows is not "the dark side". It is a viable choice, perhaps a better choice for some people. JAWS and Windows worked very well for me for nearly 20 years. I am only here because I want to support Apple's efforts, not because I believe Windows or JAWS to be the devil incarnate. Yes, editing is different. Those who prefer editing in Windows are not wrong, they just prefer something different. They are entitled to that preference, just as all on this list are entitled to their preference for the Mac. If Apple implements some choices to facilitate transition from Windows, there's nothing wrong with that. No one has to use it unless they want to.
Personally, I think it's great that there are multiple alternatives now available for blind users. Yes, what Apple has done for accessibility is tremendous. That said, I just applied for a job at a place where they pretty much come out and tell you that if you choose to use a Mac, you won't be able to utilize all of their materials. So, if I get that position, I'll be using Windows for all things work-related. I therefore hope that Windows continues to be a viable option for blind users. The best possible scenario for us is to have as many options as possible, so that each of us can decide which is the best fit for us and for our immediate needs. The Mac has many things to recommend it. But you all who choose to use it, are in no way superior to anyone else, and you have no right to disdain others who either choose the Windows option, or are willing to point out the Mac's weaknesses. And yes, the Mac does have very definite weaknesses, as does Windows. Why can't we all just be supportive and respectful of one another? I think the thing I find saddest about this whole movement toward the Mac, is the way it seems to polarize everyone. Let's just support each person's right to find what works best for them and be happy about that. Donna > -----Original Message----- > From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rich Ring > Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 9:16 PM > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? > > > With all respect, I am sure there was a time when you were a beginner. > I am > an extremely competent Windows user. This doesn't in and of itself > make me > the spawn of Satan, it is simply a statement concerning my current > technological status. One of the things that has kept me from > purchasing a > Mac until today is the condescending manner in which some (certainly > not > all) Mac users treat those of us who are investigating this pltform who > have > been Windows users. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marie Howarth" <marie.jane2...@gmail.com> > To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> > Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:45 PM > Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? > > > > think I did say I was glad of the choice, just sad apple had to > accomodate those who find it impossible to edit text in the way it is > meant to be edited. they are features that yes, fine they are here > now, just weren't really missing in my opinion. If others need their > screen reader to hold their hand cool. whatever everyone needs. as I > stated, opinion, that's all. everyone's allowed those :) > > On Aug 30, 2009, at 1:39 AM, Scott Howell wrote: > > > > > Come on this is crazy. You just can't imagine the number of people > who > > bitched and complained about this whole editing issue and I believe > > Apple was taken to task by one of the rags put out by the NFB or some > > organization about the editing issue. APparently enough people > > complained that Apple was trying to provide the flexibility for those > > users who need it. Yeah, I am one of the Scotts who made this point > > because I remember clearly the noise about this editing issue. I see > > no benefit in removing it and quite frankly since it's here, whatever > > at this point. If it really helps someone , fine because there are > > those who would simply not consider the Mac for this reason. It is > an > > option and not a default and that is why it's a feature not worth > > removing. My point is you have to think beyond what you have stated > > and I don't entirely disagree with your point of what is or is not a > > standard way of editing etc. At the same time, it obviously didn't > > take a great deal of effort to implement it and at least it is an > > option. > > On Aug 29, 2009, at 7:14 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote: > > > >> > >> Also just my oppinion, but I disagree about points 1 and 2. > >> > >> Can't say I ever have used feature numero uno in any OS as there are > >> so few webpages I'd actually want to read 100% of their content, but > >> someone somewhere will find it useful. You could argue that the > >> reading webpages automatically is as close as Apple could get to a > >> sighted person glancing at the screen when the page comes up and > >> taking in the bigger picture, which we can't do. > >> > >> Voiceover hints are definitely useful and a good thing. Context > >> sensitive help like that enables most people to be on a way shorter > >> learning curve usually than reading a whole manual and trying to > >> apply > >> things to a ton of situations at once. It's annoying that they're > >> enabled by default for you or I perhaps, but newbies are going to > >> thank Apple for it no doubt. Come to that, so will developers who > >> fire up VO for the first time when they receive a disgruntled email > >> from someone who's asking them to make adjustments to their > >> applications. It'll instantly demonstrate to them the difference > >> between what works and what doesn't, it gives them instructions > >> equally as precise as that email from the VI user would in most > >> cases. > >> > >> Wholeheartedly agreed about point 3 though. I just don't get this > >> one. You also hit the nail right on the head with the reason the > >> option shouldn't exist, it modifies a standard that doesn't in any > >> way > >> need to be modified, purely because of some VI people's rut that > >> they're firmly jammed into. To add weight to a big sweeping > oppinion > >> like that, I should say that I was raised on Windows, still use > >> Windows more often than many on here I expect, and I make my fair > >> share of mistakes editing in Mac OS if I haven't done any in a > while. > >> I don't see this option as the solution, I see it as cheating. I > >> doubt that many people will see this as an option to ease their > >> progression into Mac OS as one of the other Scott's suggested, > >> human's > >> just don't work that way, for the most part we're creatures of habit > >> even if they're bad ones. > >> > >> Tricky one though isn't it. Emailing Apple and asking that a > feature > >> be removed seems somehow wrong in my mind. In any case, I'm not > sure > >> they'd get it. I just tried to explain why I disagree with the > >> feature and what's potentially at stake here to a sighted mac user, > >> and she point blank didn't get it. I'm not sure that anyone who > >> hasn't had to appreciate how cool mainstream technology that works > >> for > >> us out of the box would, even Apple themselves might not, they > >> probably see the introduction of this feature as the best thing they > >> could've done to silence a lot of whinging lol. > >> > >> Just my 2 cents, or perhaps pennies worth for those on this side of > >> the pond... > >> Scott > >> > >> On 8/29/09, Scott Howell <s.how...@verizon.net> wrote: > >>> > >>> Well good for you, I'm glad you did not need these features and you > >>> learned the way we all started out. However, of course the only > >>> plus > >>> side is that for those who want to make the transition and really > >>> find > >>> what we "grew up with" difficult, will at least have a way to ease > >>> their transition over from the dark side. :) So, I agree with you, > >>> but these are small prices to pay if it will truly help someone > make > >>> the transition. > >>> > >>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 6:17 PM, Marie Howarth wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> well, this is purely my opinion but 3 features that horribly > >>>> remind me > >>>> of windows are as follows. > >>>> 1. automatic reading of a webpage. > >>>> 2. voice over hints. I know what to do in a text area, especially > >>>> when > >>>> it already says edit text. > >>>> 3. insertion point. this has been discussed, it's counter > intuitive > >>>> and doesn't teach the vi community how it would look to sighties. > >>>> > >>>> all I can say is I'm so glad these features are optional. they are > >>>> just horrific and no one can tell me that it will help progression > >>>> from windows to mac. I didn't have these features and I am so > >>>> glad I > >>>> did. mac is not windows, when will people realise this. > >>>> > >>>> overall vo rocks even more in this version, and I am grateful to > >>>> apple > >>>> for giving us a choice. really glad. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >> > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2333 - Release Date: > 08/29/09 17:51:00 --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
