Hi Buddy, Other than the NFB review--which was just stupid--I can honestly say I haven't run into this on the Windows side. But I can say that if I did, I'd say exactly the same thing. Cheers, Donna
> -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan > Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 12:39 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? > > > I agree: choice is not a bad thing. I use all three (Windows, Mac, and > GNU/Linux) for different things. While my main fun downtime machine is > a Mac, I definitely still use Windows for some things and in some > situations. I also have a couple of things I do where GNU/Linux is the > best choice. It's all good, and I say if it works for you, use it and > be productive. If something else works for you, use that. > > While I've seen some Windows is the antichrist stuff here and on the > GNU/Linux lists, I've seen similar, though different, things on the > Windows side, mostly to do with people thinking that these are not > viable alternatives at all, or not useful, or that those of us who use > non-Windows alternatives are only doing so out of some cultish need to > not use Microsoft products simply for the fact that they come from > Microsoft. While I don't deny there is sometimes a certain amount of > that latter attitude with some of us, it's no different, and no less > divisive, than the "Windows is the antichrist" attitude. It just > manifests itself differently. > -- > Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA > Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY > > > > On Aug 30, 2009, at 3:39 AM, James & Nash wrote: > > > > > Donnna, I could not have said it better myself. No, Windows is not > the > > darkside and I feel I have to say that whenever I listen to Windows > or > > Windows AT related podcasts which I do regularly, I have never - as > > far as i > > can remember heard these folks disparage Apple's efforts. There are > of > > course those in the AT and Windows communities who have dismissed > > the Mac > > out of hand, but these narrow minded folks are few and far between. > > > > I think we can all agree that people should use what works for them > > - or > > what works for them in a given situation - whether that be Linux, > > Mac or > > Windows is irrelevant. Yes, Apple has made great steps forward in the > > accessibility of Mac OS X, Windows AT developers and Microsoft have > > also > > done the same for Windows as have Linux folks. As you said, there are > > definite weaknesses to both - indeeed all the OS's as there are > > definite > > advantages. None of these operating systems are in any way perfect > > but we > > should respect everyone and their choice. > > > > I am not criticizing anyone - personally, I think it's a good thing > > that > > Apple have added the ability for people to decide on how they want > > to edit > > as well as other things. It is always nice and convenient to have > > options > > and multiple ways of doing things. > > > > Take care all > > > > James > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Donna Goodin" <[email protected]> > > To: <[email protected]> > > Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 4:06 AM > > Subject: RE: 3 features that hmm? > > > > > >> > >> Hello all, > >> > >> I have to support Rich here. The attitude displayed by many Mac > >> users > >> toward Windows, and toward Windows users who are doing their best > >> to learn > >> the Mac OS is frankly despicable. Many mac users--definitely not > >> all--are > >> nothing more than a bunch of narrow-minded snobs. Windows is not > >> "the > >> dark > >> side". It is a viable choice, perhaps a better choice for some > >> people. > >> JAWS and Windows worked very well for me for nearly 20 years. I am > >> only > >> here because I want to support Apple's efforts, not because I > believe > >> Windows or JAWS to be the devil incarnate. Yes, editing is > >> different. > >> Those who prefer editing in Windows are not wrong, they just prefer > >> something different. They are entitled to that preference, just as > >> all on > >> this list are entitled to their preference for the Mac. If Apple > >> implements > >> some choices to facilitate transition from Windows, there's nothing > >> wrong > >> with that. No one has to use it unless they want to. > >> > >> Personally, I think it's great that there are multiple alternatives > >> now > >> available for blind users. Yes, what Apple has done for > >> accessibility is > >> tremendous. That said, I just applied for a job at a place where > >> they > >> pretty much come out and tell you that if you choose to use a Mac, > >> you > >> won't > >> be able to utilize all of their materials. So, if I get that > >> position, > >> I'll > >> be using Windows for all things work-related. I therefore hope that > >> Windows > >> continues to be a viable option for blind users. The best possible > >> scenario > >> for us is to have as many options as possible, so that each of us > can > >> decide > >> which is the best fit for us and for our immediate needs. The Mac > >> has > >> many > >> things to recommend it. But you all who choose to use it, are in > >> no way > >> superior to anyone else, and you have no right to disdain others who > >> either > >> choose the Windows option, or are willing to point out the Mac's > >> weaknesses. > >> And yes, the Mac does have very definite weaknesses, as does > Windows. > >> > >> Why can't we all just be supportive and respectful of one another? > I > >> think > >> the thing I find saddest about this whole movement toward the Mac, > >> is the > >> way it seems to polarize everyone. Let's just support each > person's > >> right > >> to find what works best for them and be happy about that. > >> > >> Donna > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: [email protected] > >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rich Ring > >>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 9:16 PM > >>> To: [email protected] > >>> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? > >>> > >>> > >>> With all respect, I am sure there was a time when you were a > >>> beginner. > >>> I am > >>> an extremely competent Windows user. This doesn't in and of itself > >>> make me > >>> the spawn of Satan, it is simply a statement concerning my current > >>> technological status. One of the things that has kept me from > >>> purchasing a > >>> Mac until today is the condescending manner in which some > (certainly > >>> not > >>> all) Mac users treat those of us who are investigating this > >>> pltform who > >>> have > >>> been Windows users. > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Marie Howarth" <[email protected]> > >>> To: <[email protected]> > >>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:45 PM > >>> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> think I did say I was glad of the choice, just sad apple had to > >>> accomodate those who find it impossible to edit text in the way it > >>> is > >>> meant to be edited. they are features that yes, fine they are here > >>> now, just weren't really missing in my opinion. If others need > their > >>> screen reader to hold their hand cool. whatever everyone needs. as > I > >>> stated, opinion, that's all. everyone's allowed those :) > >>> > >>> On Aug 30, 2009, at 1:39 AM, Scott Howell wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Come on this is crazy. You just can't imagine the number of people > >>> who > >>>> bitched and complained about this whole editing issue and I > believe > >>>> Apple was taken to task by one of the rags put out by the NFB or > >>>> some > >>>> organization about the editing issue. APparently enough people > >>>> complained that Apple was trying to provide the flexibility for > >>>> those > >>>> users who need it. Yeah, I am one of the Scotts who made this > >>>> point > >>>> because I remember clearly the noise about this editing issue. I > >>>> see > >>>> no benefit in removing it and quite frankly since it's here, > >>>> whatever > >>>> at this point. If it really helps someone , fine because there > are > >>>> those who would simply not consider the Mac for this reason. It > is > >>> an > >>>> option and not a default and that is why it's a feature not worth > >>>> removing. My point is you have to think beyond what you have > stated > >>>> and I don't entirely disagree with your point of what is or is > >>>> not a > >>>> standard way of editing etc. At the same time, it obviously > didn't > >>>> take a great deal of effort to implement it and at least it is an > >>>> option. > >>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 7:14 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Also just my oppinion, but I disagree about points 1 and 2. > >>>>> > >>>>> Can't say I ever have used feature numero uno in any OS as there > >>>>> are > >>>>> so few webpages I'd actually want to read 100% of their content, > >>>>> but > >>>>> someone somewhere will find it useful. You could argue that the > >>>>> reading webpages automatically is as close as Apple could get to > a > >>>>> sighted person glancing at the screen when the page comes up and > >>>>> taking in the bigger picture, which we can't do. > >>>>> > >>>>> Voiceover hints are definitely useful and a good thing. Context > >>>>> sensitive help like that enables most people to be on a way > >>>>> shorter > >>>>> learning curve usually than reading a whole manual and trying to > >>>>> apply > >>>>> things to a ton of situations at once. It's annoying that > they're > >>>>> enabled by default for you or I perhaps, but newbies are going to > >>>>> thank Apple for it no doubt. Come to that, so will developers > who > >>>>> fire up VO for the first time when they receive a disgruntled > >>>>> email > >>>>> from someone who's asking them to make adjustments to their > >>>>> applications. It'll instantly demonstrate to them the difference > >>>>> between what works and what doesn't, it gives them instructions > >>>>> equally as precise as that email from the VI user would in most > >>>>> cases. > >>>>> > >>>>> Wholeheartedly agreed about point 3 though. I just don't get > this > >>>>> one. You also hit the nail right on the head with the reason the > >>>>> option shouldn't exist, it modifies a standard that doesn't in > any > >>>>> way > >>>>> need to be modified, purely because of some VI people's rut that > >>>>> they're firmly jammed into. To add weight to a big sweeping > >>> oppinion > >>>>> like that, I should say that I was raised on Windows, still use > >>>>> Windows more often than many on here I expect, and I make my fair > >>>>> share of mistakes editing in Mac OS if I haven't done any in a > >>> while. > >>>>> I don't see this option as the solution, I see it as cheating. I > >>>>> doubt that many people will see this as an option to ease their > >>>>> progression into Mac OS as one of the other Scott's suggested, > >>>>> human's > >>>>> just don't work that way, for the most part we're creatures of > >>>>> habit > >>>>> even if they're bad ones. > >>>>> > >>>>> Tricky one though isn't it. Emailing Apple and asking that a > >>> feature > >>>>> be removed seems somehow wrong in my mind. In any case, I'm not > >>> sure > >>>>> they'd get it. I just tried to explain why I disagree with the > >>>>> feature and what's potentially at stake here to a sighted mac > >>>>> user, > >>>>> and she point blank didn't get it. I'm not sure that anyone who > >>>>> hasn't had to appreciate how cool mainstream technology that > works > >>>>> for > >>>>> us out of the box would, even Apple themselves might not, they > >>>>> probably see the introduction of this feature as the best thing > >>>>> they > >>>>> could've done to silence a lot of whinging lol. > >>>>> > >>>>> Just my 2 cents, or perhaps pennies worth for those on this side > >>>>> of > >>>>> the pond... > >>>>> Scott > >>>>> > >>>>> On 8/29/09, Scott Howell <[email protected]> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Well good for you, I'm glad you did not need these features and > >>>>>> you > >>>>>> learned the way we all started out. However, of course the only > >>>>>> plus > >>>>>> side is that for those who want to make the transition and > really > >>>>>> find > >>>>>> what we "grew up with" difficult, will at least have a way to > >>>>>> ease > >>>>>> their transition over from the dark side. :) So, I agree with > >>>>>> you, > >>>>>> but these are small prices to pay if it will truly help someone > >>> make > >>>>>> the transition. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 6:17 PM, Marie Howarth wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> well, this is purely my opinion but 3 features that horribly > >>>>>>> remind me > >>>>>>> of windows are as follows. > >>>>>>> 1. automatic reading of a webpage. > >>>>>>> 2. voice over hints. I know what to do in a text area, > >>>>>>> especially > >>>>>>> when > >>>>>>> it already says edit text. > >>>>>>> 3. insertion point. this has been discussed, it's counter > >>> intuitive > >>>>>>> and doesn't teach the vi community how it would look to > >>>>>>> sighties. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> all I can say is I'm so glad these features are optional. they > >>>>>>> are > >>>>>>> just horrific and no one can tell me that it will help > >>>>>>> progression > >>>>>>> from windows to mac. I didn't have these features and I am so > >>>>>>> glad I > >>>>>>> did. mac is not windows, when will people realise this. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> overall vo rocks even more in this version, and I am grateful > to > >>>>>>> apple > >>>>>>> for giving us a choice. really glad. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> No virus found in this incoming message. > >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > >>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2333 - Release Date: > >>> 08/29/09 17:51:00 > >> > >> > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2335 - Release Date: > 08/30/09 06:36:00 --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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