Well stated Donna and all my jabs at windows really is more poking fun, but I still can't stand windows and glad to have a choice. I use windows at work and that is what we have, but luckily there is even there a choice. I personally don't care what you use as long as your productive. After all, no one os earns you a paycheck and quite frankly I'll learn to use a pencil and paper if that is what earns me a paycheck, so I can go buy a Mac. :) Couldn't let that slide by. :) On Aug 29, 2009, at 11:06 PM, Donna Goodin wrote:
> > Hello all, > > I have to support Rich here. The attitude displayed by many Mac users > toward Windows, and toward Windows users who are doing their best to > learn > the Mac OS is frankly despicable. Many mac users--definitely not > all--are > nothing more than a bunch of narrow-minded snobs. Windows is not > "the dark > side". It is a viable choice, perhaps a better choice for some > people. > JAWS and Windows worked very well for me for nearly 20 years. I am > only > here because I want to support Apple's efforts, not because I believe > Windows or JAWS to be the devil incarnate. Yes, editing is different. > Those who prefer editing in Windows are not wrong, they just prefer > something different. They are entitled to that preference, just as > all on > this list are entitled to their preference for the Mac. If Apple > implements > some choices to facilitate transition from Windows, there's nothing > wrong > with that. No one has to use it unless they want to. > > Personally, I think it's great that there are multiple alternatives > now > available for blind users. Yes, what Apple has done for > accessibility is > tremendous. That said, I just applied for a job at a place where they > pretty much come out and tell you that if you choose to use a Mac, > you won't > be able to utilize all of their materials. So, if I get that > position, I'll > be using Windows for all things work-related. I therefore hope that > Windows > continues to be a viable option for blind users. The best possible > scenario > for us is to have as many options as possible, so that each of us > can decide > which is the best fit for us and for our immediate needs. The Mac > has many > things to recommend it. But you all who choose to use it, are in no > way > superior to anyone else, and you have no right to disdain others who > either > choose the Windows option, or are willing to point out the Mac's > weaknesses. > And yes, the Mac does have very definite weaknesses, as does Windows. > > Why can't we all just be supportive and respectful of one another? > I think > the thing I find saddest about this whole movement toward the Mac, > is the > way it seems to polarize everyone. Let's just support each > person's right > to find what works best for them and be happy about that. > > Donna >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Rich Ring >> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 9:16 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? >> >> >> With all respect, I am sure there was a time when you were a >> beginner. >> I am >> an extremely competent Windows user. This doesn't in and of itself >> make me >> the spawn of Satan, it is simply a statement concerning my current >> technological status. One of the things that has kept me from >> purchasing a >> Mac until today is the condescending manner in which some (certainly >> not >> all) Mac users treat those of us who are investigating this pltform >> who >> have >> been Windows users. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Marie Howarth" <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:45 PM >> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? >> >> >> >> think I did say I was glad of the choice, just sad apple had to >> accomodate those who find it impossible to edit text in the way it is >> meant to be edited. they are features that yes, fine they are here >> now, just weren't really missing in my opinion. If others need their >> screen reader to hold their hand cool. whatever everyone needs. as I >> stated, opinion, that's all. everyone's allowed those :) >> >> On Aug 30, 2009, at 1:39 AM, Scott Howell wrote: >> >>> >>> Come on this is crazy. You just can't imagine the number of people >> who >>> bitched and complained about this whole editing issue and I believe >>> Apple was taken to task by one of the rags put out by the NFB or >>> some >>> organization about the editing issue. APparently enough people >>> complained that Apple was trying to provide the flexibility for >>> those >>> users who need it. Yeah, I am one of the Scotts who made this point >>> because I remember clearly the noise about this editing issue. I >>> see >>> no benefit in removing it and quite frankly since it's here, >>> whatever >>> at this point. If it really helps someone , fine because there are >>> those who would simply not consider the Mac for this reason. It is >> an >>> option and not a default and that is why it's a feature not worth >>> removing. My point is you have to think beyond what you have stated >>> and I don't entirely disagree with your point of what is or is not a >>> standard way of editing etc. At the same time, it obviously didn't >>> take a great deal of effort to implement it and at least it is an >>> option. >>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 7:14 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Also just my oppinion, but I disagree about points 1 and 2. >>>> >>>> Can't say I ever have used feature numero uno in any OS as there >>>> are >>>> so few webpages I'd actually want to read 100% of their content, >>>> but >>>> someone somewhere will find it useful. You could argue that the >>>> reading webpages automatically is as close as Apple could get to a >>>> sighted person glancing at the screen when the page comes up and >>>> taking in the bigger picture, which we can't do. >>>> >>>> Voiceover hints are definitely useful and a good thing. Context >>>> sensitive help like that enables most people to be on a way shorter >>>> learning curve usually than reading a whole manual and trying to >>>> apply >>>> things to a ton of situations at once. It's annoying that they're >>>> enabled by default for you or I perhaps, but newbies are going to >>>> thank Apple for it no doubt. Come to that, so will developers who >>>> fire up VO for the first time when they receive a disgruntled email >>>> from someone who's asking them to make adjustments to their >>>> applications. It'll instantly demonstrate to them the difference >>>> between what works and what doesn't, it gives them instructions >>>> equally as precise as that email from the VI user would in most >>>> cases. >>>> >>>> Wholeheartedly agreed about point 3 though. I just don't get this >>>> one. You also hit the nail right on the head with the reason the >>>> option shouldn't exist, it modifies a standard that doesn't in any >>>> way >>>> need to be modified, purely because of some VI people's rut that >>>> they're firmly jammed into. To add weight to a big sweeping >> oppinion >>>> like that, I should say that I was raised on Windows, still use >>>> Windows more often than many on here I expect, and I make my fair >>>> share of mistakes editing in Mac OS if I haven't done any in a >> while. >>>> I don't see this option as the solution, I see it as cheating. I >>>> doubt that many people will see this as an option to ease their >>>> progression into Mac OS as one of the other Scott's suggested, >>>> human's >>>> just don't work that way, for the most part we're creatures of >>>> habit >>>> even if they're bad ones. >>>> >>>> Tricky one though isn't it. Emailing Apple and asking that a >> feature >>>> be removed seems somehow wrong in my mind. In any case, I'm not >> sure >>>> they'd get it. I just tried to explain why I disagree with the >>>> feature and what's potentially at stake here to a sighted mac user, >>>> and she point blank didn't get it. I'm not sure that anyone who >>>> hasn't had to appreciate how cool mainstream technology that works >>>> for >>>> us out of the box would, even Apple themselves might not, they >>>> probably see the introduction of this feature as the best thing >>>> they >>>> could've done to silence a lot of whinging lol. >>>> >>>> Just my 2 cents, or perhaps pennies worth for those on this side of >>>> the pond... >>>> Scott >>>> >>>> On 8/29/09, Scott Howell <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Well good for you, I'm glad you did not need these features and >>>>> you >>>>> learned the way we all started out. However, of course the only >>>>> plus >>>>> side is that for those who want to make the transition and really >>>>> find >>>>> what we "grew up with" difficult, will at least have a way to ease >>>>> their transition over from the dark side. :) So, I agree with >>>>> you, >>>>> but these are small prices to pay if it will truly help someone >> make >>>>> the transition. >>>>> >>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 6:17 PM, Marie Howarth wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> well, this is purely my opinion but 3 features that horribly >>>>>> remind me >>>>>> of windows are as follows. >>>>>> 1. automatic reading of a webpage. >>>>>> 2. voice over hints. I know what to do in a text area, especially >>>>>> when >>>>>> it already says edit text. >>>>>> 3. insertion point. this has been discussed, it's counter >> intuitive >>>>>> and doesn't teach the vi community how it would look to sighties. >>>>>> >>>>>> all I can say is I'm so glad these features are optional. they >>>>>> are >>>>>> just horrific and no one can tell me that it will help >>>>>> progression >>>>>> from windows to mac. I didn't have these features and I am so >>>>>> glad I >>>>>> did. mac is not windows, when will people realise this. >>>>>> >>>>>> overall vo rocks even more in this version, and I am grateful to >>>>>> apple >>>>>> for giving us a choice. really glad. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>>> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2333 - Release Date: >> 08/29/09 17:51:00 > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
