hi David, there is certainly some bullying and personal attack that goes on here, but sadly that's the nature of a lot of email lists. People think they can drown people out because they have nothing better to do than to post multiple messages that become increasingly personal as the flaws in their argument are exposed. Personal attack is always the resort of those whose argument is weak. What I will say to you though is that as you can see from the list, there are a number of us who have been trying to make a difference, hopefully to fend off a situation where we have to wait some time before our use case is addressed. I hope very much we've succeeded. If not, we keep going. It was interesting to read a piece yesterday that backed up something I said on my own blog earlier this year. I feel sure that Apple has leaked the information about the lack of a headphone jack deliberately. They know it's a contentious issue, even among those who don't get their entire screen output via it as we do. They're hoping that by letting it leak, the majority of the anger will have subsided by release time. After all, it's an unusual situation where the thing most people are talking about is actually the removal of something, not a great new feature. Apple do miscalculate from time to time and it's possible they have done so this time. Even if that proves not to be the case, Apple must obey the law like everyone else, and there is legislation like section 255 of the US Telecommunications Act that may make legal action possible if Apple makes things less accessible for a vulnerable group of users. Each country also has its own legislation. In the end, what people say on this list makes not a scrap of difference and I've been focussing my energies on preparing for what I can do if we as blind hearing aid wearers can't use VO and charge our devices at the same time. I spoke up because I knew that there would be people here who were intimidated by some of the dismissive language, and I'm glad it's made you feel like you have people who get your needs. Jonathan Mosen Mosen Consulting Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training http://Mosen.org
> On 3/09/2016, at 6:24 AM, David Griffith <daj.griff...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I believe this is the arrogrant person who described me as a troll because I > tried to represent the issues of hearing impaired issues so I am not at all > surprised by the ignorance and callousness of this reply to Jonathon. > > > Heaven help us if this is how members of our community turn of on deaf users. > > > David Griffith > > On 02/09/2016 13:35, Scott Granados wrote: >> Jonathan, now you’re just writing stuff to read it later, that’s just nutty. >> You make it like some huge personal assault against the great and mighty >> Jonathan Mosen, please, we’ve seen an adapter is going to exist so you have >> your precious 1960s technology. >> >> >> In the end, probably 3 people are going to care about this issue over all >> and all 3 are on this list.:) >> >> The average consumer doesn’t care what shape or size plug they use as long >> as when they plug it in the little light goes on and stuff works. >> >> >>> On Sep 1, 2016, at 9:56 PM, Jonathan Mosen <jmo...@mosen.org >>> <mailto:jmo...@mosen.org>> wrote: >>> >>> Keep fighting the good fight David. This is far too important an issue to >>> give up. Our money is as good as anyone else's and we must never give up >>> advocating for recognition of our need to be able to use our devices with >>> efficiency and privacy while also charging them. If it turns out that this >>> need has been met, then it will in part be due to courageous people like >>> you who have spoken up. >>> Jonathan Mosen >>> Mosen Consulting >>> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training >>> http://Mosen.org <http://mosen.org/> >>>> On 2/09/2016, at 11:05 AM, David Griffith <daj.griff...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:daj.griff...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> As another deaf iPhone user I agree with everything you say but I htink >>>> you will probably not get that much understanding. I tried to explain on >>>> this list about how a wired headset was essential for me but was accused >>>> bizarrely of being a troll because I dared to criticise an Apple >>>> innovation. >>>> This did cause another another poster to comment that ironically some >>>> people are deaf to the concerns of those of with hearing impairments. >>>> >>>> David Griffith >>>> >>>> On 01/09/2016 20:07, Jonathan Mosen wrote: >>>>> Hi Mary, unfortunately this issue doesn't affect the Deaf community in >>>>> the same way as it affects blind people who wear hearing aids and require >>>>> decent latency. And the fact that those of us who are affected are such a >>>>> minority makes us more vulnerable. You can be sure I am considering my >>>>> legal options under legislation here. >>>>> A standard hearing aid wearer uses their phone actively far less than a >>>>> blind person who wears a hearing aid. For example, if a Bluetooth >>>>> solution is being used, after a standard hearing aid wearer has finished >>>>> their call or isn't listening to music, the technology goes into standby >>>>> and uses very little energy. A blind person has VO talking a lot of the >>>>> time if they're using their device for tasks like reading and creating >>>>> documents, email etc, so the impact is much greater. >>>>> Even if people are willing to accept an adapter jutting out of their >>>>> phone with its resultant potential to be lost or bent, the adapter will >>>>> not solve the problem entirely if it means that you can't charge your >>>>> device and use headphones at the same time. I travel long distances for >>>>> example, often with flights over 12 hours long. I regularly take my >>>>> Anka battery with me and charge the phone while I >>>>> use it to compensate for the inaccessible in-flight entertainment system. >>>>> It's important to me to have a full charge when I reach my destination. >>>>> Based on the information we have, it looks like you can either listen to >>>>> wired headphones or charge, not both. >>>>> That means that every VoiceOver user who chooses a wired option appears >>>>> to have to choose between privacy and charge. >>>>> Jonathan Mosen >>>>> Mosen Consulting >>>>> Blindness technology eBooks, tutorials and training >>>>> http://Mosen.org <http://mosen.org/> >>>>>> On 2/09/2016, at 4:41 AM, Mary Otten <motte...@gmail.com >>>>>> <mailto:motte...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, just to be clear, I personally would be against this move, if it >>>>>> means that they' very large hard of hearing community can't use hearing >>>>>> aids on iPhones anymore. That seems like such an incredibly stupid move >>>>>> on Apple's part, that I am tempted to just believe that they wouldn't do >>>>>> it if they didn't have a workaround that would work for people who use >>>>>> hearing aids. The hard of hearing community is orders of magnitude >>>>>> larger then the blind community. So Shirley, this adapter must be >>>>>> providing someway for people who use hearing aids to keep on doing so. >>>>>> What am I missing here? I remember sometime ago, when the idea that the >>>>>> headphone jack would go away first came out, Jonathan wrote a very >>>>>> impassioned piece on this subject, arguing that this was a very bad idea >>>>>> because of the use case of hearing aids. Now Apple is going to do it >>>>>> anyway, but they're offering an adapter. Why doesn't that solve the >>>>>> problem? I understand why Bluetooth is not a good alternative, given >>>>>> Jonathan's comments on battery drain and the well-known problem for >>>>>> voiceover users with latency. It's still really bad, at least on my >>>>>> phone with my legend. I would not want to have to type on that system >>>>>> for anything more than a word or two, because the latency between when >>>>>> you touch a letter and when you hear it is much too long. >>>>>> Mary >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sep 1, 2016, at 8:53 AM, Scott Granados <sc...@qualityip.net >>>>>>> <mailto:sc...@qualityip.net>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mary, you’re exactly right and points well stated as always. Here’s >>>>>>> another point to consider, suppose we add wireless charging. Now, you >>>>>>> could have a brick with no ports what so ever formed from one solid >>>>>>> piece of material. You could almost grow the casing and have a super >>>>>>> durable waterproof phone with no openings at all. The entire surface >>>>>>> could be a screen. Not needing ports is a good thing over all. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Aug 31, 2016, at 3:33 PM, Mary Otten <motte...@gmail.com >>>>>>>> <mailto:motte...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Mark, >>>>>>>> Of course, only time will tell. But I think you are wrong about the >>>>>>>> disappearing headphone jack. For one thing, Samsung put back the >>>>>>>> storage card thing, but did not put back the user replaceable battery. >>>>>>>> Also, if the other rumor is true, Apple will be including compatible >>>>>>>> earbuds with the new phone, as well as an adapter to make it possible >>>>>>>> for people to use other headphones. Given the prevalence of Bluetooth >>>>>>>> these days, I suspect that the headphone jack will in fact be gone >>>>>>>> from iPhones forever. Other device makers are already moving in this >>>>>>>> direction. So it isn't just Apple. In fact, they will not be the first >>>>>>>> ones to market without a headphone jack on the phone. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:05 AM, M. Taylor <mk...@ucla.edu >>>>>>>>> <mailto:mk...@ucla.edu>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Well, as for me, I'm going to sit back and see how the market accepts >>>>>>>>> the new iPhone 7 trans a separate earphone jack. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> When Samsung attempted to make its devices thinner by (1) removing >>>>>>>>> the removable battery and (2) removing the ability to add auxiliary >>>>>>>>> memory to its flagship phones, it soon reversed its decision as the >>>>>>>>> market, effectively, rejected the devices in favor of other companies >>>>>>>>> who kept those features. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A couple of years ago, when Apple decided to remove the ability for >>>>>>>>> iOS devices to have their photo content immediately available to PC >>>>>>>>> users upon attaching the device to the computer, the marketplace went >>>>>>>>> crazy and vowed to turn to Android if Apple insisted on forcing >>>>>>>>> people to use iTunes in order to manage photos. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Like Samsung, Apple immediately reversed itself by restoring this >>>>>>>>> feature in the subsequent release of iTunes. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> So, I'll just wait and see for, unless 7 is a complete hit, something >>>>>>>>> tells me that iPhone 8 will bring the jack back (smile). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mark >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>>>>>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>] On Behalf Of Bill Gallik >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 9:43 AM >>>>>>>>> To: MacVisionaries E-Mail List >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Some interesting rumours regarding 3.5 mm jack issue on >>>>>>>>> the iPhone seven >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> When all the “hubbub” concerning Apple removing the earphone jack >>>>>>>>> first appeared I was certain they (Apple) was going to provide an >>>>>>>>> adapter so potential customers would be able to use their existing >>>>>>>>> earphones with the iPhone 7. This coming to light does not surprise >>>>>>>>> me in the least. >>>>>>>>> **************** >>>>>>>>> - Bill & Leader Dog Holland >>>>>>>>> - "The problem with people who have no vices is that you can be >>>>>>>>> pretty sure they are going to have some pretty annoying virtues." >>>>>>>>> - Elizabeth Taylor, 20th Century Screen Actress, (1932-2011)-- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >>>>>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >>>>>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list >>>>>>>>> itself. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is >>>>>>>>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/> >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >>>>>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >>>>>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list >>>>>>>>> itself. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is >>>>>>>>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/> >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >>>>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >>>>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list >>>>>>>> itself. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is >>>>>>>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/> >>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, >>>>>>> or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact >>>>>>> the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list >>>>>>> itself. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is >>>>>>> Cara Quinn - 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you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>>>>> >>>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. >>>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>>> Visionaries list. >>>>> >>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or >>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the >>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>>> >>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara >>>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>>>> >>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>>>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/> >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. >>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >>>> Visionaries list. >>>> >>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or >>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the >>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >>>> >>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara >>>> Quinn - 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you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >>> >>> The archives for this list can be searched at: >>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >>> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/> >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries >>> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >> >> -- >> The following information is important for all members of the Mac >> Visionaries list. >> >> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if >> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or >> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. >> >> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara >> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com >> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com> >> >> The archives for this list can be searched at: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ >> <http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/> >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries >> <https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > -- > The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries > list. > > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or > moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. > > Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara > Quinn - 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