Re: O/T RE: NFB, Uber App and a Guide Dog

Thu, 28 Sep 2017 10:26:23 -0700 

Mark and Cara,
Can we redirect this group back on topic? Unless Apple has developed Apple Guide Dogs, we should save those discussions for a more suitable forum. Thanks. 

From E.T.'s Keyboard. . .
  "God for you is where you sweep away all the
  mysteries of the world, all the challenges to
  our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off
  and say God did it." --Carl Sagan
E-mail: [email protected]

On 9/28/2017 10:16 AM, David & his pack of dogs wrote:

I understand where you are coming from re: the iron fist approach.  Let's use the 
guide dog access as an example.  Upon entering a restaurant, you are promptly told, 
"You can't bring that dog in here!!!  No animals aloud!!!!
The iron fist approach is to loudly proclaim, "YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW!!!
The velvet glove approach is too show them the law and try and reason with them. To put you in the picture so my 
comment has credibility, an agency told me I could not bring in my guide dog because people might be allergic to him.  
They stuck to the phrase "might be allergic to them" like a strong magnet and refused to budge even when 
there was over whelming evidence that no one was allergic to him.  To speed the story up, the adjudicator at the 
tribunal told us, "They just don't get it." The other thing was they felt they were above any law.  After 
shown the public access law on multiple occations, they  attempted to re-write it by saying, "We can't tell you 
not to bring your guide we can however, tell you where you should sit."  The entire process took 2 years from 
inception to going to a tribunal over their arrogance or obstinence. They foolishly felt if they said he was in the 
way, smelled and people might be allergic to him, with 18 letters and a picture of a little girl with swollen eyes from 
an allergic reaction, it would help their case.  Naturally, it did not.  The picture?  The adjudicator put it best when 
she said, "There is no date on this picture and nothing to indicate that the child was not having a reaction to 
something else."  I think the apparent arrogance of the respondence tried her patients. What organization a person 
belongs too, either the ACB NFB or CFB, makes no difference to me, as long as they handle things properly. If you want 
a laugh, where we used to live the Canadian army and navy were quite prevalent.  So, upon meeting a person who 
introduced herself as belonging to the CFB, I thought she was talking about the Canadian forces base.  Also called the 
CFB.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] 
On Behalf Of Erik Burggraaf
Sent: September 28, 2017 9:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: O/T RE: NFB, Uber App and a Guide Dog

It's ultra political no doubt about that.  In my experience, the goods get 
dispursed based on who heads a chapter, just as an example, not necessarily on 
size.  People are people, and it's unfortunate, but you can do one of two 
things.  You can barry your head in the sand and pretend they don't exist until 
you need to trot out the bad.  Or you can persevere, take the good they offer 
with the bad, and try to leverage the good to make a difference.

I'm comfortable with the iron fisted approach myself.  The nfb does a lot more 
than bang the drum, but they do bang the drum a lot, and as long as they have 
their facts right, I'm very happy to let them do that.  The velvet glove 
approach screwed me pretty bad, to the tune of 6.5 grand, three years, and a 
successful consulting practice.  Now that I have two human rights cases to work 
on, I'm not really in a velvet glove kind of mood.  That doesn't mean I won't 
compromize, just not to the extent of giving up my due process for no value in 
return or allowing myself to go without compensation for lost years, or 
allowing companies to continue using inaccessibly designed infrastructure.

Anyhow, I don't want people saying the nfb doesn't support guide dogs, because 
that isn't true.  I'm sorry you had a bad experience that completely put you 
off the process, but I don't want to miss a chance to help some one with 
advocacy or living skills or travel or anything else they need because they 
heard bad things about say, the cfb, and won't
approach me.    I'm here to help people and despite the fact that it is far
from perfect, federationism is the best way to advocate for people who are 
blind and against the barriers we face in society.

Best,

Erik


On September 28, 2017 12:06:35 PM "David & his pack of dogs"
<[email protected]> wrote:

I have not been on the NAGDU, or as I like to call it, "Not Another Guide Dog 
User" list for years so, admittedly have no current knowledge about if NFB has 
changed, or not.  MY dealings with them were, they will grab the lime light as often as 
they can, get their nose in things that have nothing to do with blindness so they can 
stay in the lime light and basically treat people within their organization like dirt if 
it is felt they have no voice. I E, if a chapter has let's say 15 members and another one 
has 100, the one with 15 members is viewed as inconsequential and of little value, not 
worth even listening too. Here is the way the NFB was described to me a long time ago 
after I left it.  They will immediately use an iron fist to get their point across, 
whereas other agencies will use a velvet glove. If they can be in the lime light, they 
could care less about blind people.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Erik Burggraaf
Sent: September 28, 2017 7:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: O/T RE: NFB, Uber App and a Guide Dog

Hello all,

I was an NFB member for three years, and I am currently a CFB member.  The 
organizations do a lot of things, most of which I personally approve, a few of 
which I don't.  In my limitted experience, the NFB and CFB are both 100% 
supportive of guidedogs.  The NFB has a guide dog division, the national 
association of guide dog users.  They are doing legal advocacy with companies 
like uber on the guide dog issue and access to information to make the Uber 
experience better for the blind.

I'm sorry that some users have had negative experiences with the NFB and it's 
treatment of guide dogs.  The NFB is slow to adapt.  Most of it's bad decisions 
derive from failing to understand and respond to new challenges.
It's also a huge organization at least as far as the NFB.   The CFB not so
much.  It's made up of people and people are infinitely diverse.  It has more 
than the usual alotment of caring, generous, thoughtful, hardworking people, 
but it also has assholes, climbers, backstabbers and those sorts have a way of 
positioning themselves so that it can seem like they are powerful voices of the 
organization.  Whatever position the organization may have taken on guide dogs 
in the past, it is now 100% positively and pro-actively in support of them now, 
and has been for the short term of my association with them.  Considering the 
power carried by the NFB in deciding for blind Americans what their direction 
will be, I think it's a good idea to let bygones be bygones, and be informed on 
current issues in which the NFB is involved.  That way, you will have a chance 
to impact the future.

As far as Canadian law, federal statute protects the right of guide dog users 
to be served in any public place, as if the guide dog were not present.  This 
includes stores, restaurants, transportation services, public accommodations, 
hospitals, government service centres, and well... I can't actually think of an 
exclusion now that I come to think of it.  If the public can go there and get 
service, so can a guide dog user.  The law does not require guide dog users to 
identify themselves as having or using a guide dog.  That would not come under 
the heading of being served as if the dog were not there, would it?  I don't 
mind disclosing that I have a guide dog as long as:
The disclosure is entirely voluntary.
My service is in no way limitted by my disclosure.
As in the case of uber, if there is a rideshare available three minutes from my 
location, but considering my voluntary disclosure of a guide dog, my nearest 
available ride is now 15 minutes away because three or five providers near me 
have opted out of taking dogs.  Not acceptable.

The laws on service animals being different in numerous geographic regions 
where-in Uber operates, but most favouring guide dog users over transport 
providers, the safe thing for Uber to do is erre on the side of caution.
Especially since they're already being sued.

Best,

Erik



On September 27, 2017 8:06:58 PM Karen Lewellen <[email protected]>
wrote:

Oh neither is mine, I remember when the NFB wanted the state of new York to
bar   the use of service animals in public buildings...and I do not use a
dog myself.
Still, that is all the more reason for uber to incorporate this process into 
the app itself.  Or find an objective way to gather this information.
   Kare



On Wed, 27 Sep 2017, David & his pack of dogs wrote:


I will admit, my opinion of the NFB is not good.  Don't worry, I will
not air dirty laundry.  I just didn't like the way they treated a
guide dog user I knew. Who, had a chapter of the NFB, yet was treated like
dirt.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Karen Lewellen
Sent: September 27, 2017 2:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Uber App and a Guide Dog

I am not writing from a place of cynicism.  instead I feel the source
is more likely  to be preaching to the choir.
why should ubber pay anyone to survey something that  cannot be
generalized in the first place?
I cannot speak to the app itself, but given how many travel
variation's are possible  here, that feels more like the nfb getting
names and uber buying fake pr.
Kare



On Wed, 27 Sep 2017, David & his pack of dogs wrote:


Sorry, when there is money coming from the agency being surveyed, I
call

into question the validity of the survey and whether the answers not
wanted go into file 13. I guess as I get older, I become more sinical
especially when it comes to blind agencies.




From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Jonathan Cohn
Sent: September 27, 2017 10:27 AM
To: macvisionaries <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Uber App and a Guide Dog



Also note, that the NFB set up a survey that you can fill out to show
the

results of your trip with UBEr or List.  It asks where you were
traveling, when, and with whom. It then asks if the driver knew and
abided by the non-discrimination laws. There is also a question about
the accessibility of the apps themselves. Of course, NFB gets money
from Lift / Uber to certify that they are not being discriminatory but
none of that rolls down to you for actually doing the compliance checks.






On 27 September 2017 at 10:49, Karen Lewellen
<[email protected]

<mailto:[email protected]> > wrote:


Was this right behind Toronto?
Know idea about uber, but regularly Toronto's taxi association gets

complaints about this I am told.  So often in fact that they  have a
dedicated  contact just for them.

Uber is an interesting travel choice regardless, just ask the women
who

have been assaulted by some of their drivers.

The ap should? have an option for notifying, within the system, that
a

passenger comes with extras.  That might  encompass  many things
creating an inclusive approach.

Kare


"No one is born hating another person because of the color of his
skin or his background or his religion ... People must learn to hate,
and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love... For love
comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite." Nelson
Mandela.



On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, David & his pack of dogs wrote:

Apparently, Washington D C in the U S were the worst offenders of

discriminatory conduct towards blind handlers and their guides.  There
was a sting set up and documented on T V I believe about cab drivers
that would deliberately drive by what they thought were blind persons
with their guides.  Anyway, I am getting off topic.


-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
[mailto:[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]> ] On Behalf Of David
Chittenden
Sent: September 26, 2017 3:59 PM
To: [email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Uber App and a Guide Dog

After Uber was sued and lost, they adopted a zero-tollerance policy
around

discrimination of guide dogs. In other words, if the driver abandons
someone because of a guide dog, place a complaint through the app and
Uber will dismiss the driver. When it happened to me, Uber gave me a $10
credit.


When I had a guide dog in the US, I experienced significantly more

discrimination from taxi drivers, and the taxi companies never
provided me the identifying information so I could progress complaints
(talk about behaving above the law). Personally, I prefer Uber's
response as they changed their policies and practices after they lost the
lawsuit.


Note: In Australia and New Zealand, the taxi companies have

zero-tollerance policies regarding guide dogs, so I have not had any
difficulties in either country regarding my guide dog and taxis.


Kind regards,

David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
Email: [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
Mobile: +61 488 988 936 <tel:%2B61%20488%20988%20936> Sent from my
iPhone

On 27 Sep 2017, at 06:03, Nancy Badger <[email protected]

<mailto:[email protected]> > wrote:


There will be an option on the app to call the driver. I called the
driver

and let him know that I was blind and I had a white cane. He was able
to recognize me immediately and it kept me from missing my ride. I
would recommend that you call and let him know your circumstances.
Just my opinion.



Nancy Badger, Ph.D
Executive Director of Counseling
Old Dominion University
Sent from my iPhone with dictation software. Please excuse spelling

errors.


On Sep 26, 2017, at 2:02 PM, Jeff Berwick <[email protected]

<mailto:[email protected]> > wrote:


Hi guide dog users,

I am considering using Uber for the first time and am wondering if
there

is a procedure for notifying them that I have a guide dog so the
driver would be aware of this before coming to pick me.


Please let me know.

Thx,
Jeff


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