Hi Oh yes, I remember the last major OS transition well and my points are to try to avoid people making the same mistakes again. People who view a new OS as a challenge and try to develop rigid ways of doing things in it cause half the problems in my view. However, I think screen readers have to make assumptions to be really productive. The key is to be able to customise them so that you have the choice. I do not want to have to investigate several columns individually to have email messages identified, I know I want to know both the subject and sender, I just want to hear it the second I land there, and likewise when I open a message, I just want it read, but am happy to be able to tell the screen reader that I want that level of automation. I don't want a three finger keystroke to do it every time when one will do fine in windows. Email is so fundamental it would mean hundreds of extra keypresses every day. Eyes make assumptions all the time and things just happen naturally, we need to be able to use devices that help us keep up.
Don't get me wrong, the advantages you quote are good and genuine ones and I totally welcome what Apple are doing, otherwise I would not even care, but I want to try to ensure I could be pretty efficient when I switch before I do it, and so far, efficiency is not something I hear from Mac users. Cheers Dave -----Original Message----- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Howell Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 12:26 PM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: How To Get VoiceOver To Read Mail Messages Automatically Dave, I can only speak for me personally, but first I believe some of these tutorials or podcasts do make things seem complicated, but in reality it is not as difficult as it may seem. I am sure when you started out with a windows-based screen reader, all those keystrokes seemed a little much, but with time you became familiar enough to get what you needed done. I have to use windows and thus a windows-based screen reader for certain tasks professionally, but I use a Mac both professionally and personally. I have not found it difficult at all to accomplish tasks and even learning the menus or other aspects of applications, while using VOiceOver. One advantage of the Mac is that VOiceOver does not interfere with standard OS commands, so you do have several ways to accomplish the same task. An example of this is accessing the status menu that shows the clock, wireless network status etc. The standard Mac command is control-f8 and the VO command is control-option-mm (m twice). So, perhaps the issue is more that there is more choices for getting the same thing done and on windows a windows-based screen reader effectively takes over the keyboard. Perhaps Apple could have used more OS-specific commands in lieu of VO-specific commands, but I cannot comment as I was not there during the design and initial development. I have however been using VO since the release of TIger, so I have had a good deal of experience using the Mac. So, I also have learned how to leverage these different ways of accomplishing various tasks. When I first started learning about VO, I agree it seemed like a lot of commands and tricky keystrokes, but honestly once I started using VO, it was easier than I imagined. Like anything new, the more you use it the more quickly you will learn how to use it effectively. Another thing I appreciate is the fact that I make my own choices and I do not have to depend on the screen reader to determine what I need to know. YOu can argue the merits of my logic because some just want to get the task accomplished and that I agree with. I however do not want my screen reader assuming anything because there is no way that assumption can account for all situations. Another issue is an application you may really need is not accessible or as much as you may require because someone has not developed a script, set file, or other configuration that makes the application accessible for your needs. However, with VO, provided a developer has used standard controls and followed Apples accessibility guidelines, the application will be accessible out of the box. In fact some apps that do not exactly follow Apple's guidelines still will work fine, but may take a little more effort on the user's part. I certainly am not interested in arguing which is better because that debate has and still rages on. The point I want to make is that the Mac OS or the WIndows OS, and VoiceOver and windows-based screen readers, have their place. It is up to you as a user to choose the OS and screen reader that best fits your needs. For me the Mac and VO has been the best thing that has happen and I could point out more examples then I want to type, but I again can only speak for myself. I think the number of blind users who have switched to the Mac speaks for itself. I will of course state that VO like any other screen reader is not perfect, but Apple has more than proven VOiceOver is a viable alternative, just as APple has proven the Mac and its OS are viable alternatives. On Jun 17, 2010, at 5:27 AM, Dave Taylor wrote: > Here is where I think one of the biggest issues is though. As a prospective > Mac user, from the demos and manuals, there seem to be an awful lot of > different and often complex keystrokes to do things. I'm not clear if one > needs all of them or if people doing the demos are making things more > complex than needed, or just not explaining why things are the way they are. > In Windows we can work out which methods to try based on what kind of task > we are doing. We know that you activate things with either enter or space, > both single keystrokes. We know there are many ways to move around, but we > know that we can find most things by exploring menus or tabbing. Most times, > our screen readers know what we are most likely to want to do and give us > the option of automating that task, often on a per application basis. They > can also give us relatively simple keystrokes on a per application basis to > do tasks specific to that application. > > It comes across that with a Mac you have at least three different way to > select things and that only one of them will work in a given situation. It > comes across that you have to navigate relatively complex screens with > multi-finger keystrokes to do what you can often do with one single > keystroke in Windows, specific questions in a separate message, and it comes > across that there are a lot of situations when a Windows screen reader would > automate something that you have to tell VO to do. > > Be assured, I raise these points not in opposition to converting, I'm here > because I'm seriously thinking that when this computer goes, the next one > will be a Mac, but for others thinking of converting, I hope the answers > people give to these points will reassure them and hopefully be reflected in > some sort of searchable tips and tricks kind of website. I very much want to > know what's possible, not seem in opposition. > > Cheers > Dave > > > -----Original Message----- > From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kimberly thurman > Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2010 1:31 AM > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: How To Get VoiceOver To Read Mail Messages Automatically > > Yeah, I fell into that trap early on with VO coming from Jaws. Now, when I > pick up my windows laptop, I have to remind myself where the tab key is and > not to grab the control and windows key with the arrows. It's very > disorienting some times. LOL!!!!! > On Jun 16, 2010, at 1:08 PM, Anne Robertson wrote: > >> Hello Dave, >> >> You can set VO to interact automatically when you tab to a field where > this is appropriate, but tabbing isn't always the best way to navigate with > VO. Many ex-JAWS users get themselves into a muddle by tabbing everywhere. > As a very very long-term Mac user, the tab key is the last thing I think > about for navigation. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Anne >> >> >> On Jun 16, 2010, at 7:03 PM, Dave Taylor wrote: >> >>> Hi >>> >>> Does tabbing around not make VO automatically interact? >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
