I have changed the subject line to more reflect on the discussion at
hand. If Apple can set aside resources to make their Mac computers
universally marketed across the board, there is no reason why
Microsoftshouldn't, (and they definitely have the resources and the
technical expertise throughout the company) to do so. And if it
brings the prices down, and Microsoft does, for example, develop a
mechanism by which Windows can be installed out of the box without
sighted assistance, companies such as Freedom Scientific would then be
forced to either go with the trend; otherwise, they would lose their
economic dolars; after all, isn't that what competition for tax
dollars and marketshare is all about? In my humble opinion, for what
it's worth, the only reason Freedom Scientific survives in the market
is because they have contracted with some state agencies and
government entities, and we bare the brunt of the expense ineirectly.
I paid less for my car than I have for braille displays costing $8000
to $12,000 dollars at a time. In Alaska, for example, the biggest
majority of vision loss occurs in the elderly population and baby
boomers who are about to reach retirement age. We have no school for
the blind in Alaska; therefore, if parents want to send their blind
kids off to a residential school, they would have to send them
Stateside, which costs the state thousands of dollars which they could
probably find other revenues to use elsewhere.There are a handful of
us who are blind and visually-impaired Macusers, but that numberis
increasing, as the word about VoiceOver gets out. Richie Gardenhire,
Anchorage, Alaska.
On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:21 PM, carlene knight wrote:
I know that the companies take huge advantage of the fact that they
have a guaranteed nitch and can charge whatever they want. That's why
I will not upgrade my JAWS SMA. For one thing I don't need it and
secondly, I don't want to pay that kind of price for an upgrade, but
FS knows that they can get away with it because of a guaranteed
market. I'm not saying things could not change, but simply stating
that you can't get JAWS or a Braille display from a home electronics
ore software store, and I wouldn't expect to happen any time soon if
ever. In their eyes, why should They bother as they won't sell enough
of them to make it worth their while. There is a cell phone put out
by Capital Accessibility in Europe. I've seen one and it's no big
deal. The speech is great, but there is no camera, digital screen, or
anything that might ad a bit of a price to the phone. It's built like
a brick, but it is over $500 and though the speech is clear, it's very
robotic. Tell me that's not ridiculous? I don't know that agencies
are responsible for this one, but the phone is so tailored to our
needs that somebody will buy it. Not me. Granted, if more people
were learning braille and speech software as they were dealing with
macular degeneration, and there was a big enough demand for it, things
might come down a bit. That's great about the scanner. I'd better
stop typing now as I am misspelling more things than I am typing
correctly and am about to throw this keyboard, though it's not at fault.
On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote:
With all due respect, that argument has been used time and time
again. To that, I say this: the best example of a product that has
gone down in price because of the acceptance of it by the sighted
community, is the optical scanner, which was originally intended for
use by the blind for scanning newspapers, magazines, and othr
documents in their computers or reading machines. Back then, you had
to pay thousands of dolars for the machine, and ys, state agencies
bought it for us, if we were lucky. Now, one can buy a scanner and
to a certain extent, software for scanning pictures, text, and other
document forms into one's PC, at a fraction of the cost it was in the
1970's. The point here is that it found a marketable niche among the
sighted community, and once they were mass-produced, prices started
coming down and people could afford said scanners. While braille
displays are another issue, there are companies who are working to
make even displays more affordable and accepting to the universal
design market. In the 1980's, Apple tried an experiment, using an
ordinary, dot matrix printer, to produce braille. It wasn't the best
quality braille, but it was an experiment that, had it been popular,
might have flown. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska.
On Nov 30, 2009, at 11:50 AM, carlene knight wrote:
Unfortunately you have to be realistic though. I agree with you in a
sense, but going into a store and buying JAWS or Window Eyes off of
the shelf? That would be nice? that's one reason I like the Mac and
accessories. The people in the Mac and Apple stores will likely not
be trained for extensive use with Vo, but they should be able to make
sure it works. Try going into a Best Buy and asking them if JFW
works. We probably make up less than 10% of the population so it
isn't going to happen. It would still be expensive, and that's why I
needed the agency to buy it for me. Again don't get me wrong, in a
perfect world that might happen, but we all know the world is far
from perfect. I'm not trying to defend anybody necessarily, and I
don't consider myself dependent because I need assistance from them.
I got my own jobs, take care of myself, go where I need to go etc. A
good organization helps people become independent. I agree that
whenever possible, we should do for ourselves and not be too
dependent on anybody, agencies included.
On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote:
And for this reason, I feel that many state agencies, (Alaska's,
being one of them)will be cutting back services, in favor of other
things and as Mark so eloquently pointed out, the elderly, the poor,
and the disabled, will be hurt first. I know thisis a different
subject line from what was originally intended, and I apologize for
that, but I will say one more thing on this, and that is that I'm in
favor of universal design so that blind people can walk into any
store and purchase off-the-shelf software and get it working and we
not be forced to be co-dependent on state agencies to purchase our
stuff. I guess, in a way, I'm against state agencies for the
reasons I stated above. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska.
On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:32 AM, carlene knight wrote:
Hi Mark:
I certainly don't hold a grudge as everybody is entitled to their
opinion. However, if it weren't for the Commission for the blind
here in Oregon, there is no way that I could perform the job I was
hired for. I had to have a programmer write JAWS scripts so that I
could get to the buttons, read the drop down boxes that just had
graphics for names, etc. I couldn't have afforded the thousands of
dollars that has costed. He is working as we speak since the
company I work for has changed software and everything we had done
in the past regarding the original software is now null and void. I
could have not afforded a Braille display at about 12,000 dollars.
I can say with certainty that there are few if any companies that
would provide any of these services. Unfortunately many government
funded agencies, including the Oregon Commission for the blind do
know little about Mac accessibility as they have contracts with
certain vendors, and, face it,whether we like it or not, a majority
of companies still use Windows based software. My husband and I
both decided on our own to try the Mac, and though I've had some
problems, I'm glad I did. I've learned it without an instructor.
We nearly lost our Commission last summer so when I hear people
talking about how we shouldn't have government agencies such as
this, I have to disagree though they do have their problems. Yes,
some people do rely on others to much, but not all of us do. Like
you, I grew up in the public school system in a rural area. I was
born blind also. I'll get off my soap box now.
On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:51 AM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote:
You, and I to a lesser extent, and others are the exception. I was
born blind, didn't go to any institutions for the blind, was raised
as an only child, mostly in rural Vermont with minimal help from
state agencies. Graduated from Dartmouth when I was 20, again with
minimal if any help from agencies--didn't have my first experience
with any agencies or institutions for the blind until I was 24,
when the Carroll Center was offering a medical transcription course
and I needed another, safer place to be. They kicked me out of
their dorm, making me homeless, after six weeks there. Rehab
flatly refused to support me and my music career in any way, and
pressured me to go to the Carroll Center in the first place, then
pressured me to get therapy and reform my ways when they made me
homeless. I only started cautiously learning how to deal with the
agencies in 2007, when it became clear that my failing hearing was
going to force me out of the transcription career I'd had for 13+
years. I learned Jaws and Windows essentially by myself, as I've
always been good with tech.
Even now, while I may have learned a little about how to get along
with the agencies and get what I need, it's a very uneasy truce at
best./ I hope to be starting a job at another institution for the
blind soon, but this time as a trainer, not a student, which
hopefully will turn out better. You can see why I advocate for the
abolition of such systems. They do not foster independence of
thinking, and tend to punish outside-the-box people, in my
experience. I do realize that people blinded later in life may not
adapt as fully as those born blind; I'm learning that as I lose my
hearing, so I have the privilege of seeing both sides of the coin,
but think about what that
implies--
that the pressure on those whose world has already been blasted by
losing their sight will essentially become putty in the hands of
high-
pressure agencies who are set in their ways. The system seems to
punish at both ends--if you're too independent, you're pressured to
conform; if you're new to blindness, you're taught not to think for
yourself. Hell, I didn't even do mobility orienting stuff until
last year, when Rehab here in CA suggested I ry it, and I decided,
in the interests of keeping the peace, what the heck; my mobility
teacher quickly realized that there was very little, beyond the
immediate rehearsing of directions, that she could improve upon
what I and my dog were already going. Since I got Trekker, that's
even more so; now that Trekker is temporarily broken, I truly feel
the loss. :) I don't see how the agencies really have done me any
good, other than in the purely material realm, and if I weren't as
articulate as I am about stating my needs, and as forceful as I am
about what I need, which most people are not, even that gain might
be minimal, and even now the damage is significant. So, that's
where my beef with the system(s) comes in; sorry if that makes it a
personal grudge, but there you are then.
Mark BurningHawk Baxter
Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969
MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com
My home page:
http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To post to this group, send email to
macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en
.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en
.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en
.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en
.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en
.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en
.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"MacVisionaries" group.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
