I hate to say it this way, but I agree with you about the NFB. I don't think you could have said it any better (smiley). All the school systems I have been through had Macks, the first computer I ever started with was a Mack, I guess it was an Apple 2, not sure though. Courtney
On Jun 23, 2010, at 9:33 PM, Michael Thurman wrote: > that is why I can't stand the NFB but then again a rich attourney runs it, or > used to, so what do you expect. he has disposable income > On Jun 23, 2010, at 3:49 PM, Chris Snyder wrote: > >> Hmm, The school system here in Arizona has always dealt with Apple. When I >> was little, we had Apple 2E and 2GS computers, and when I got to high >> school, we had the mac SE and other models. Now that my own children are in >> school, they're learning on iMacs. Apple has always been involved with k-12 >> education here. It's actually rather nice since I can help the kids with >> their computer classes on the Mac. >> As far as the libraries around town go, they're all PC based, especially in >> the adaptive technology rooms where they keep the braille writers and >> scanners and such. >> As far as Microsoft trying to make a screen reader is concerned, once again, >> the NFB shoots blind people without state help in the foot yet again. I >> would always would rather not pay extra for adaptive tech, and indeed it's >> why I got rid of all but one of the PC's in the house. >> The more I see of the iPhone, the more excited I get over it, and the more I >> actually consider switching to AT&T's evil empire. >> Anyway, just my two cents. >> >> Friendly, >> Chris >> >> On Jun 23, 2010, at 8:18 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> I don't mean to be harsh but, your local school system is the minority. It >>> really has no baring on Bryan's original comment. >>> On Jun 23, 2010, at 3:41 AM, Rob Lambert wrote: >>> >>>> In regards to your academia comment, the public school system, my high >>>> school's library, as well as mobile labs & many elementary schools around >>>> here, are Mac-based. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Bryan Smart <bryansm...@bryansmart.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> Microsoft tried to make a full screen reader over 10 years ago. Between >>>> the National Federation of the Blind, and the various screen reader >>>> companies, they were threatened with all sorts of vocally loud press for >>>> putting blind people out of work at the AT companies. MS decided that hot >>>> potato was more trouble than it was worth, and dropped the project. >>>> >>>> I guess Apple didn't get the same treatment since there was no screen >>>> reader company to put out of business, unless you count how Berkeley >>>> Systems got shafted, and most of the blindness orgs know that, while >>>> individuals might like Macs, business and academia will continue to insist >>>> on Windows machines for a long time to come. Macs are mostly irrelevant to >>>> them. >>>> >>>> Bryan >>>> >>>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>> >>>> > I have changed the subject line to more reflect on the discussion at >>>> > hand. If Apple can set aside resources to make their Mac computers >>>> > universally marketed across the board, there is no reason why >>>> > Microsoftshouldn't, (and they definitely have the resources and the >>>> > technical expertise throughout the company) to do so. And if it >>>> > brings the prices down, and Microsoft does, for example, develop a >>>> > mechanism by which Windows can be installed out of the box without >>>> > sighted assistance, companies such as Freedom Scientific would then be >>>> > forced to either go with the trend; otherwise, they would lose their >>>> > economic dolars; after all, isn't that what competition for tax >>>> > dollars and marketshare is all about? In my humble opinion, for what >>>> > it's worth, the only reason Freedom Scientific survives in the market >>>> > is because they have contracted with some state agencies and >>>> > government entities, and we bare the brunt of the expense ineirectly. >>>> > I paid less for my car than I have for braille displays costing $8000 >>>> > to $12,000 dollars at a time. In Alaska, for example, the biggest >>>> > majority of vision loss occurs in the elderly population and baby >>>> > boomers who are about to reach retirement age. We have no school for >>>> > the blind in Alaska; therefore, if parents want to send their blind >>>> > kids off to a residential school, they would have to send them >>>> > Stateside, which costs the state thousands of dollars which they could >>>> > probably find other revenues to use elsewhere.There are a handful of >>>> > us who are blind and visually-impaired Macusers, but that numberis >>>> > increasing, as the word about VoiceOver gets out. Richie Gardenhire, >>>> > Anchorage, Alaska. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:21 PM, carlene knight wrote: >>>> > >>>> > I know that the companies take huge advantage of the fact that they >>>> > have a guaranteed nitch and can charge whatever they want. That's why >>>> > I will not upgrade my JAWS SMA. For one thing I don't need it and >>>> > secondly, I don't want to pay that kind of price for an upgrade, but >>>> > FS knows that they can get away with it because of a guaranteed >>>> > market. I'm not saying things could not change, but simply stating >>>> > that you can't get JAWS or a Braille display from a home electronics >>>> > ore software store, and I wouldn't expect to happen any time soon if >>>> > ever. In their eyes, why should They bother as they won't sell enough >>>> > of them to make it worth their while. There is a cell phone put out >>>> > by Capital Accessibility in Europe. I've seen one and it's no big >>>> > deal. The speech is great, but there is no camera, digital screen, or >>>> > anything that might ad a bit of a price to the phone. It's built like >>>> > a brick, but it is over $500 and though the speech is clear, it's very >>>> > robotic. Tell me that's not ridiculous? I don't know that agencies >>>> > are responsible for this one, but the phone is so tailored to our >>>> > needs that somebody will buy it. Not me. Granted, if more people >>>> > were learning braille and speech software as they were dealing with >>>> > macular degeneration, and there was a big enough demand for it, things >>>> > might come down a bit. That's great about the scanner. I'd better >>>> > stop typing now as I am misspelling more things than I am typing >>>> > correctly and am about to throw this keyboard, though it's not at fault. >>>> > >>>> > On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> With all due respect, that argument has been used time and time >>>> >> again. To that, I say this: the best example of a product that has >>>> >> gone down in price because of the acceptance of it by the sighted >>>> >> community, is the optical scanner, which was originally intended for >>>> >> use by the blind for scanning newspapers, magazines, and othr >>>> >> documents in their computers or reading machines. Back then, you had >>>> >> to pay thousands of dolars for the machine, and ys, state agencies >>>> >> bought it for us, if we were lucky. Now, one can buy a scanner and >>>> >> to a certain extent, software for scanning pictures, text, and other >>>> >> document forms into one's PC, at a fraction of the cost it was in the >>>> >> 1970's. The point here is that it found a marketable niche among the >>>> >> sighted community, and once they were mass-produced, prices started >>>> >> coming down and people could afford said scanners. While braille >>>> >> displays are another issue, there are companies who are working to >>>> >> make even displays more affordable and accepting to the universal >>>> >> design market. In the 1980's, Apple tried an experiment, using an >>>> >> ordinary, dot matrix printer, to produce braille. It wasn't the best >>>> >> quality braille, but it was an experiment that, had it been popular, >>>> >> might have flown. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> On Nov 30, 2009, at 11:50 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >> Unfortunately you have to be realistic though. I agree with you in a >>>> >> sense, but going into a store and buying JAWS or Window Eyes off of >>>> >> the shelf? That would be nice? that's one reason I like the Mac and >>>> >> accessories. The people in the Mac and Apple stores will likely not >>>> >> be trained for extensive use with Vo, but they should be able to make >>>> >> sure it works. Try going into a Best Buy and asking them if JFW >>>> >> works. We probably make up less than 10% of the population so it >>>> >> isn't going to happen. It would still be expensive, and that's why I >>>> >> needed the agency to buy it for me. Again don't get me wrong, in a >>>> >> perfect world that might happen, but we all know the world is far >>>> >> from perfect. I'm not trying to defend anybody necessarily, and I >>>> >> don't consider myself dependent because I need assistance from them. >>>> >> I got my own jobs, take care of myself, go where I need to go etc. A >>>> >> good organization helps people become independent. I agree that >>>> >> whenever possible, we should do for ourselves and not be too >>>> >> dependent on anybody, agencies included. >>>> >> >>>> >> On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>> >> >>>> >>> And for this reason, I feel that many state agencies, (Alaska's, >>>> >>> being one of them)will be cutting back services, in favor of other >>>> >>> things and as Mark so eloquently pointed out, the elderly, the poor, >>>> >>> and the disabled, will be hurt first. I know thisis a different >>>> >>> subject line from what was originally intended, and I apologize for >>>> >>> that, but I will say one more thing on this, and that is that I'm in >>>> >>> favor of universal design so that blind people can walk into any >>>> >>> store and purchase off-the-shelf software and get it working and we >>>> >>> not be forced to be co-dependent on state agencies to purchase our >>>> >>> stuff. I guess, in a way, I'm against state agencies for the >>>> >>> reasons I stated above. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:32 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> Hi Mark: >>>> >>> >>>> >>> I certainly don't hold a grudge as everybody is entitled to their >>>> >>> opinion. However, if it weren't for the Commission for the blind >>>> >>> here in Oregon, there is no way that I could perform the job I was >>>> >>> hired for. I had to have a programmer write JAWS scripts so that I >>>> >>> could get to the buttons, read the drop down boxes that just had >>>> >>> graphics for names, etc. I couldn't have afforded the thousands of >>>> >>> dollars that has costed. He is working as we speak since the >>>> >>> company I work for has changed software and everything we had done >>>> >>> in the past regarding the original software is now null and void. I >>>> >>> could have not afforded a Braille display at about 12,000 dollars. >>>> >>> I can say with certainty that there are few if any companies that >>>> >>> would provide any of these services. Unfortunately many government >>>> >>> funded agencies, including the Oregon Commission for the blind do >>>> >>> know little about Mac accessibility as they have contracts with >>>> >>> certain vendors, and, face it,whether we like it or not, a majority >>>> >>> of companies still use Windows based software. My husband and I >>>> >>> both decided on our own to try the Mac, and though I've had some >>>> >>> problems, I'm glad I did. I've learned it without an instructor. >>>> >>> We nearly lost our Commission last summer so when I hear people >>>> >>> talking about how we shouldn't have government agencies such as >>>> >>> this, I have to disagree though they do have their problems. Yes, >>>> >>> some people do rely on others to much, but not all of us do. Like >>>> >>> you, I grew up in the public school system in a rural area. I was >>>> >>> born blind also. I'll get off my soap box now. >>>> >>> >>>> >>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:51 AM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote: >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> You, and I to a lesser extent, and others are the exception. I was >>>> >>>> born blind, didn't go to any institutions for the blind, was raised >>>> >>>> as an only child, mostly in rural Vermont with minimal help from >>>> >>>> state agencies. Graduated from Dartmouth when I was 20, again with >>>> >>>> minimal if any help from agencies--didn't have my first experience >>>> >>>> with any agencies or institutions for the blind until I was 24, >>>> >>>> when the Carroll Center was offering a medical transcription course >>>> >>>> and I needed another, safer place to be. They kicked me out of >>>> >>>> their dorm, making me homeless, after six weeks there. Rehab >>>> >>>> flatly refused to support me and my music career in any way, and >>>> >>>> pressured me to go to the Carroll Center in the first place, then >>>> >>>> pressured me to get therapy and reform my ways when they made me >>>> >>>> homeless. I only started cautiously learning how to deal with the >>>> >>>> agencies in 2007, when it became clear that my failing hearing was >>>> >>>> going to force me out of the transcription career I'd had for 13+ >>>> >>>> years. I learned Jaws and Windows essentially by myself, as I've >>>> >>>> always been good with tech. >>>> >>>> Even now, while I may have learned a little about how to get along >>>> >>>> with the agencies and get what I need, it's a very uneasy truce at >>>> >>>> best./ I hope to be starting a job at another institution for the >>>> >>>> blind soon, but this time as a trainer, not a student, which >>>> >>>> hopefully will turn out better. You can see why I advocate for the >>>> >>>> abolition of such systems. They do not foster independence of >>>> >>>> thinking, and tend to punish outside-the-box people, in my >>>> >>>> experience. I do realize that people blinded later in life may not >>>> >>>> adapt as fully as those born blind; I'm learning that as I lose my >>>> >>>> hearing, so I have the privilege of seeing both sides of the coin, >>>> >>>> but think about what that >>>> >>>> implies-- >>>> >>>> that the pressure on those whose world has already been blasted by >>>> >>>> losing their sight will essentially become putty in the hands of >>>> >>>> high- >>>> >>>> pressure agencies who are set in their ways. The system seems to >>>> >>>> punish at both ends--if you're too independent, you're pressured to >>>> >>>> conform; if you're new to blindness, you're taught not to think for >>>> >>>> yourself. Hell, I didn't even do mobility orienting stuff until >>>> >>>> last year, when Rehab here in CA suggested I ry it, and I decided, >>>> >>>> in the interests of keeping the peace, what the heck; my mobility >>>> >>>> teacher quickly realized that there was very little, beyond the >>>> >>>> immediate rehearsing of directions, that she could improve upon >>>> >>>> what I and my dog were already going. Since I got Trekker, that's >>>> >>>> even more so; now that Trekker is temporarily broken, I truly feel >>>> >>>> the loss. :) I don't see how the agencies really have done me any >>>> >>>> good, other than in the purely material realm, and if I weren't as >>>> >>>> articulate as I am about stating my needs, and as forceful as I am >>>> >>>> about what I need, which most people are not, even that gain might >>>> >>>> be minimal, and even now the damage is significant. So, that's >>>> >>>> where my beef with the system(s) comes in; sorry if that makes it a >>>> >>>> personal grudge, but there you are then. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mark BurningHawk Baxter >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 >>>> >>>> MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com >>>> >>>> My home page: >>>> >>>> http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> >>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> >>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>> >>>> macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>> >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> >>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>> >>>> . >>>> >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>> >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> -- >>>> >>> >>>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> >>> Groups "MacVisionaries" 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