Ah, Ok. I guess this might have much to do with States or regions. At least in NYC its rare to see a Mac in a school or library now a days On Jun 23, 2010, at 10:38 PM, Chris Snyder wrote:
> Well, I saw the macs in my own schools starting in about 1986 when I was in > second grade. But as I said, my children, the oldest of whom is eight, use > macs in their school. I checked into it, and the entire district as well as > several surrounding it also use macs. > > Friendly, > Chris > > On Jun 23, 2010, at 7:08 PM, Ricardo Walker wrote: > >> I don't know, >> >> The last time I saw a Mac in a school I was 11 years old. This was in 1994. >> all throughout high school and college I've yet to see one. The public >> libraries all use windows PCs as well. How far back are you guys talking >> about since you've seen Macs in schools? I don't mean to be rude but, if >> your using your experiences from what you used 20 years ago I don't know how >> valid that is. >> On Jun 23, 2010, at 9:39 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote: >> >>> Not totally sure on that minority claim. >>> fro many many years, apple had the apple core program where they donated >>> apple computers to schools around the country. >>> I went to high school in Arkansas...a grand while ago, and the computers we >>> had were apple computers. >>> You might be surprised how many schools are so equip. >>> Karen >>> >>> >>> On Wed, 23 Jun 2010, Michael Thurman wrote: >>> >>>> every school system that I have ever had any dealings with uses macintosh >>>> computers in at least some of their labs and teaching. >>>> On Jun 23, 2010, at 11:18 AM, Ricardo Walker wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I don't mean to be harsh but, your local school system is the minority. >>>>> It really has no baring on Bryan's original comment. >>>>> On Jun 23, 2010, at 3:41 AM, Rob Lambert wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> In regards to your academia comment, the public school system, my high >>>>>> school's library, as well as mobile labs & many elementary schools >>>>>> around here, are Mac-based. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Jun 23, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Bryan Smart >>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> Microsoft tried to make a full screen reader over 10 years ago. Between >>>>>> the National Federation of the Blind, and the various screen reader >>>>>> companies, they were threatened with all sorts of vocally loud press for >>>>>> putting blind people out of work at the AT companies. MS decided that >>>>>> hot potato was more trouble than it was worth, and dropped the project. >>>>>> >>>>>> I guess Apple didn't get the same treatment since there was no screen >>>>>> reader company to put out of business, unless you count how Berkeley >>>>>> Systems got shafted, and most of the blindness orgs know that, while >>>>>> individuals might like Macs, business and academia will continue to >>>>>> insist on Windows machines for a long time to come. Macs are mostly >>>>>> irrelevant to them. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bryan >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, 30 Nov 2009, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I have changed the subject line to more reflect on the discussion at >>>>>>> hand. If Apple can set aside resources to make their Mac computers >>>>>>> universally marketed across the board, there is no reason why >>>>>>> Microsoftshouldn't, (and they definitely have the resources and the >>>>>>> technical expertise throughout the company) to do so. And if it >>>>>>> brings the prices down, and Microsoft does, for example, develop a >>>>>>> mechanism by which Windows can be installed out of the box without >>>>>>> sighted assistance, companies such as Freedom Scientific would then be >>>>>>> forced to either go with the trend; otherwise, they would lose their >>>>>>> economic dolars; after all, isn't that what competition for tax >>>>>>> dollars and marketshare is all about? In my humble opinion, for what >>>>>>> it's worth, the only reason Freedom Scientific survives in the market >>>>>>> is because they have contracted with some state agencies and >>>>>>> government entities, and we bare the brunt of the expense ineirectly. >>>>>>> I paid less for my car than I have for braille displays costing $8000 >>>>>>> to $12,000 dollars at a time. In Alaska, for example, the biggest >>>>>>> majority of vision loss occurs in the elderly population and baby >>>>>>> boomers who are about to reach retirement age. We have no school for >>>>>>> the blind in Alaska; therefore, if parents want to send their blind >>>>>>> kids off to a residential school, they would have to send them >>>>>>> Stateside, which costs the state thousands of dollars which they could >>>>>>> probably find other revenues to use elsewhere.There are a handful of >>>>>>> us who are blind and visually-impaired Macusers, but that numberis >>>>>>> increasing, as the word about VoiceOver gets out. Richie Gardenhire, >>>>>>> Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:21 PM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know that the companies take huge advantage of the fact that they >>>>>>> have a guaranteed nitch and can charge whatever they want. That's why >>>>>>> I will not upgrade my JAWS SMA. For one thing I don't need it and >>>>>>> secondly, I don't want to pay that kind of price for an upgrade, but >>>>>>> FS knows that they can get away with it because of a guaranteed >>>>>>> market. I'm not saying things could not change, but simply stating >>>>>>> that you can't get JAWS or a Braille display from a home electronics >>>>>>> ore software store, and I wouldn't expect to happen any time soon if >>>>>>> ever. In their eyes, why should They bother as they won't sell enough >>>>>>> of them to make it worth their while. There is a cell phone put out >>>>>>> by Capital Accessibility in Europe. I've seen one and it's no big >>>>>>> deal. The speech is great, but there is no camera, digital screen, or >>>>>>> anything that might ad a bit of a price to the phone. It's built like >>>>>>> a brick, but it is over $500 and though the speech is clear, it's very >>>>>>> robotic. Tell me that's not ridiculous? I don't know that agencies >>>>>>> are responsible for this one, but the phone is so tailored to our >>>>>>> needs that somebody will buy it. Not me. Granted, if more people >>>>>>> were learning braille and speech software as they were dealing with >>>>>>> macular degeneration, and there was a big enough demand for it, things >>>>>>> might come down a bit. That's great about the scanner. I'd better >>>>>>> stop typing now as I am misspelling more things than I am typing >>>>>>> correctly and am about to throw this keyboard, though it's not at fault. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With all due respect, that argument has been used time and time >>>>>>>> again. To that, I say this: the best example of a product that has >>>>>>>> gone down in price because of the acceptance of it by the sighted >>>>>>>> community, is the optical scanner, which was originally intended for >>>>>>>> use by the blind for scanning newspapers, magazines, and othr >>>>>>>> documents in their computers or reading machines. Back then, you had >>>>>>>> to pay thousands of dolars for the machine, and ys, state agencies >>>>>>>> bought it for us, if we were lucky. Now, one can buy a scanner and >>>>>>>> to a certain extent, software for scanning pictures, text, and other >>>>>>>> document forms into one's PC, at a fraction of the cost it was in the >>>>>>>> 1970's. The point here is that it found a marketable niche among the >>>>>>>> sighted community, and once they were mass-produced, prices started >>>>>>>> coming down and people could afford said scanners. While braille >>>>>>>> displays are another issue, there are companies who are working to >>>>>>>> make even displays more affordable and accepting to the universal >>>>>>>> design market. In the 1980's, Apple tried an experiment, using an >>>>>>>> ordinary, dot matrix printer, to produce braille. It wasn't the best >>>>>>>> quality braille, but it was an experiment that, had it been popular, >>>>>>>> might have flown. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 11:50 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Unfortunately you have to be realistic though. I agree with you in a >>>>>>>> sense, but going into a store and buying JAWS or Window Eyes off of >>>>>>>> the shelf? That would be nice? that's one reason I like the Mac and >>>>>>>> accessories. The people in the Mac and Apple stores will likely not >>>>>>>> be trained for extensive use with Vo, but they should be able to make >>>>>>>> sure it works. Try going into a Best Buy and asking them if JFW >>>>>>>> works. We probably make up less than 10% of the population so it >>>>>>>> isn't going to happen. It would still be expensive, and that's why I >>>>>>>> needed the agency to buy it for me. Again don't get me wrong, in a >>>>>>>> perfect world that might happen, but we all know the world is far >>>>>>>> from perfect. I'm not trying to defend anybody necessarily, and I >>>>>>>> don't consider myself dependent because I need assistance from them. >>>>>>>> I got my own jobs, take care of myself, go where I need to go etc. A >>>>>>>> good organization helps people become independent. I agree that >>>>>>>> whenever possible, we should do for ourselves and not be too >>>>>>>> dependent on anybody, agencies included. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And for this reason, I feel that many state agencies, (Alaska's, >>>>>>>>> being one of them)will be cutting back services, in favor of other >>>>>>>>> things and as Mark so eloquently pointed out, the elderly, the poor, >>>>>>>>> and the disabled, will be hurt first. I know thisis a different >>>>>>>>> subject line from what was originally intended, and I apologize for >>>>>>>>> that, but I will say one more thing on this, and that is that I'm in >>>>>>>>> favor of universal design so that blind people can walk into any >>>>>>>>> store and purchase off-the-shelf software and get it working and we >>>>>>>>> not be forced to be co-dependent on state agencies to purchase our >>>>>>>>> stuff. I guess, in a way, I'm against state agencies for the >>>>>>>>> reasons I stated above. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:32 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Mark: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I certainly don't hold a grudge as everybody is entitled to their >>>>>>>>> opinion. However, if it weren't for the Commission for the blind >>>>>>>>> here in Oregon, there is no way that I could perform the job I was >>>>>>>>> hired for. I had to have a programmer write JAWS scripts so that I >>>>>>>>> could get to the buttons, read the drop down boxes that just had >>>>>>>>> graphics for names, etc. I couldn't have afforded the thousands of >>>>>>>>> dollars that has costed. He is working as we speak since the >>>>>>>>> company I work for has changed software and everything we had done >>>>>>>>> in the past regarding the original software is now null and void. I >>>>>>>>> could have not afforded a Braille display at about 12,000 dollars. >>>>>>>>> I can say with certainty that there are few if any companies that >>>>>>>>> would provide any of these services. Unfortunately many government >>>>>>>>> funded agencies, including the Oregon Commission for the blind do >>>>>>>>> know little about Mac accessibility as they have contracts with >>>>>>>>> certain vendors, and, face it,whether we like it or not, a majority >>>>>>>>> of companies still use Windows based software. My husband and I >>>>>>>>> both decided on our own to try the Mac, and though I've had some >>>>>>>>> problems, I'm glad I did. I've learned it without an instructor. >>>>>>>>> We nearly lost our Commission last summer so when I hear people >>>>>>>>> talking about how we shouldn't have government agencies such as >>>>>>>>> this, I have to disagree though they do have their problems. Yes, >>>>>>>>> some people do rely on others to much, but not all of us do. Like >>>>>>>>> you, I grew up in the public school system in a rural area. I was >>>>>>>>> born blind also. I'll get off my soap box now. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:51 AM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You, and I to a lesser extent, and others are the exception. I was >>>>>>>>>> born blind, didn't go to any institutions for the blind, was raised >>>>>>>>>> as an only child, mostly in rural Vermont with minimal help from >>>>>>>>>> state agencies. Graduated from Dartmouth when I was 20, again with >>>>>>>>>> minimal if any help from agencies--didn't have my first experience >>>>>>>>>> with any agencies or institutions for the blind until I was 24, >>>>>>>>>> when the Carroll Center was offering a medical transcription course >>>>>>>>>> and I needed another, safer place to be. They kicked me out of >>>>>>>>>> their dorm, making me homeless, after six weeks there. Rehab >>>>>>>>>> flatly refused to support me and my music career in any way, and >>>>>>>>>> pressured me to go to the Carroll Center in the first place, then >>>>>>>>>> pressured me to get therapy and reform my ways when they made me >>>>>>>>>> homeless. I only started cautiously learning how to deal with the >>>>>>>>>> agencies in 2007, when it became clear that my failing hearing was >>>>>>>>>> going to force me out of the transcription career I'd had for 13+ >>>>>>>>>> years. I learned Jaws and Windows essentially by myself, as I've >>>>>>>>>> always been good with tech. >>>>>>>>>> Even now, while I may have learned a little about how to get along >>>>>>>>>> with the agencies and get what I need, it's a very uneasy truce at >>>>>>>>>> best./ I hope to be starting a job at another institution for the >>>>>>>>>> blind soon, but this time as a trainer, not a student, which >>>>>>>>>> hopefully will turn out better. You can see why I advocate for the >>>>>>>>>> abolition of such systems. They do not foster independence of >>>>>>>>>> thinking, and tend to punish outside-the-box people, in my >>>>>>>>>> experience. I do realize that people blinded later in life may not >>>>>>>>>> adapt as fully as those born blind; I'm learning that as I lose my >>>>>>>>>> hearing, so I have the privilege of seeing both sides of the coin, >>>>>>>>>> but think about what that >>>>>>>>>> implies-- >>>>>>>>>> that the pressure on those whose world has already been blasted by >>>>>>>>>> losing their sight will essentially become putty in the hands of >>>>>>>>>> high- >>>>>>>>>> pressure agencies who are set in their ways. The system seems to >>>>>>>>>> punish at both ends--if you're too independent, you're pressured to >>>>>>>>>> conform; if you're new to blindness, you're taught not to think for >>>>>>>>>> yourself. Hell, I didn't even do mobility orienting stuff until >>>>>>>>>> last year, when Rehab here in CA suggested I ry it, and I decided, >>>>>>>>>> in the interests of keeping the peace, what the heck; my mobility >>>>>>>>>> teacher quickly realized that there was very little, beyond the >>>>>>>>>> immediate rehearsing of directions, that she could improve upon >>>>>>>>>> what I and my dog were already going. Since I got Trekker, that's >>>>>>>>>> even more so; now that Trekker is temporarily broken, I truly feel >>>>>>>>>> the loss. :) I don't see how the agencies really have done me any >>>>>>>>>> good, other than in the purely material realm, and if I weren't as >>>>>>>>>> articulate as I am about stating my needs, and as forceful as I am >>>>>>>>>> about what I need, which most people are not, even that gain might >>>>>>>>>> be minimal, and even now the damage is significant. So, that's >>>>>>>>>> where my beef with the system(s) comes in; sorry if that makes it a >>>>>>>>>> personal grudge, but there you are then. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Mark BurningHawk Baxter >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 >>>>>>>>>> MSN: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> My home page: >>>>>>>>>> http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" 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