I think definitely part of the problem is that, with a new OS, we do have to 
learn to do things in a different way, but I also wonder if we can isolate 
these problems to specific system configurations.  I have an iMac with 4 GB 
RAM, 2.66 GHz Intel Core 2 Duo and I am not having the lag issues people are 
experiencing.  I do get the strange com.apple.extras message on boot up, but it 
doesn't really bother me.  I'm more intrigued about it than anything else.  I 
don't notice much of a difference at all in boot up times, although I rarely 
reboot my iMac anyway.  I don't doubt at all that people are having problems, 
but since some of us are having problems and others not, I wonder if we can try 
to isolate the issues instead of just saying how terrible things are?
On Jul 24, 2011, at 3:07 PM, Tim Kilburn wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I would disagree with the premise that Apple is getting sloppy as well as the 
> comment of Lion being riddled with bugs to the point of a Beta release.  
> Apple's commitment to accessibility is evident through the improvements and 
> modifications to VO and the group of Beta testers involved in its Beta phase.
> 
> As mentioned in previous posts, most of the issues called bugs over the last 
> few days of posting are simply a different way of doing things.  Humans, for 
> the most part, resist change.  There are some exceptions but most of us get 
> used to doing things in a certain way and are set back when things are 
> changed/modified.  That's partially why we here so much noise about VO not 
> being as good as JAWS by many PC users and many early switchers.
> 
> I, myself, have been a VO user since its introduction in 2005 and each time 
> the new OS is released, I struggle with some of the new ways of doing things. 
>  This isn't to say that each of my struggles are bugs in the OS 
> implementation, they are just hurdles for me because I'm used to doing things 
> in a different way.
> 
> So, in a nutshell, I take exception to comments on Apple's sloppiness.  I 
> agree that Lion is slower in booting, but if I don't turn my Mac off that 
> often, then what's the big deal.  I agree that there is quite a number of 
> things done differently, but, you still can teach an old dog new tricks, and 
> I'm game for it.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> Later…
> 
> On 2011-07-24, at 12:49 PM, Chris Snyder wrote:
> 
>> Well said. Apple will sort it out. Until then, I've reverted to Snow 
>> Leopard, and I'll keep it until some updates to Lion have come out. Using a 
>> March 2011 Macbook Pro 13 inch with the I5 processor, and I went from 37 
>> seconds to boot up in Snow Leopard, to 1 minute and 25 to boot up in Lion. 
>> Friendly,
>> Chris
>> 
>> On Jul 22, 2011, at 8:05 PM, Missy Hope wrote:
>> 
>>> Amen! Very well said! I agree 100 percent with everything in this message. 
>>> Bottom line, we're paying the price for pouncing
>>> on a new OS the day it came out. I'm sure that sooner or later, (hopefully 
>>> sooner), Apple will fix all of these issues.
>>> Good night, all!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [email protected] 
>>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark 
>>> Gilland
>>> Sent: Friday, July 22, 2011 10:50 PM
>>> To: [email protected]
>>> Subject: Re: Voice over lag and other lion issues
>>> Importance: High
>>> 
>>> I wouldn't so much say that they are losing commitment, as much as I'd say,
>>> they seem to be getting very sloppy.  I mean, ok, here's my thing.  I
>>> totally am with all you all in saying everyone just chill.  the only reason
>>> I'm keeping my stance so strong on this is the fact that look at this.  I
>>> mean, this looks like we should still be running a beta with all these bugs.
>>> come on, lookit!  We have some beta testers on here, do we not?  Admit it,
>>> did you all see any of these bugs?  If not, then wow.  I apologize.  Really
>>> I do.  I'm then out of lign severely, and for that, I'm ashamed of myself,
>>> but, really, think about this for justa minute.  OK, you all can shoot me, I
>>> know you may want me to shut up, as does a few people who we won't mention,
>>> but, if they and all you others will please I beg you, just! for once, hear
>>> me out for a second.
>>> 
>>> If you will, and will at least acknowledge me, then I'll perhaps shut up.
>>> 
>>> Just let me have this for a sec.
>>> 
>>> Look, let's addres this from a fact stand point rather than a Chris's
>>> opinion standpoint, ok?
>>> 
>>> this way it's more fair.
>>> 
>>> 1.  We all agree this is a new O S, right?
>>> 
>>> 2.  We all agree that things are very buggy in many areas, right?  Uh dab
>>> dab dap? Holdit!  I'm not done, listen to me!  I'm still talking.  You'll
>>> get your chance.  I didn't ask you all if th3e problems can be addressed in
>>> a software update.  I'll address that in a second.  right now, we're just
>>> looking at the facts.  OK?  So I repeat:
>>> 
>>> 2.  Is it not true, that we all agree that lots of things are buggy?  Yes,
>>> or no.
>>> 
>>> 3.  Do we all agree that these are problems that should have probably been
>>> addressed at least to some extent during the beta cycle before the official
>>> release?  Yes or no>?
>>> 
>>> 4.  Do we all agree that most of these bugs can be delt with and tollerated
>>> to some degree?
>>> 
>>> OK then.
>>> 
>>> I think we all agree on all the above, so why such hostility toward me and
>>> everyone else on list by some members.  Look, I feel you all's frustration,
>>> we just want things to work, but we also are getting frustrated at the
>>> nonconstructive messages cluttering the inbox of many.  But, there is a
>>> delete key, and I assure you, things will die down once Lion is more
>>> progressed.  Right now, everyone is just kind of in that what the bird state
>>> right now.
>>> 
>>> do we need to chill?  OK, maybe so, but, really people, do you really think
>>> that an O S should be this buggy before official release?  I know you all
>>> don't like hearing what I'm saying, and it's pissing you all off hearing it,
>>> but that's because I am not afraid to speak my mind nor the truth.  The
>>> blunt truth is, at least in my view of things, Apple is beginning to fail
>>> miserably at there line of duty with accessibilty.  Now, does this mean I'm
>>> saying that they are purposefully? doing this?  No!  Mark it in red what I
>>> say here:  Ab, suh, lootly? not!  I think they're just becoming more and
>>> more lazy, maybe not wanting to be so involved.  Maybe they're trying to
>>> take on too much at once.  I, don't, know!  I don't know what goes on behind
>>> the scenes there?  I probably don't, wanna? know!  The point is, we really
>>> can't make accusations, can we!  We don't know if they're really working
>>> behind the scene or not.  So, on the one hand, should we probably just
>>> chill?  Yes, but, having said that, is it mortally wrong for me to
>>> constructively complain about observations I've found?  Yes.  Is it
>>> justifiable to say negative things about bugs I find which we all knkow
>>> exist?  Yes!  It's just an observation/opinion people? It's not your spouce
>>> who won't... umm... I'm not finishing that... LOL!  ROFL!
>>> 
>>> You get the point.
>>> 
>>> So in my defense, I ask jpeole, please be more gentle with me.  I'm only
>>> trying to help you all, and make suggestions.  I may come on harsh at times,
>>> I know I do, but for god sake, cut me some slack! I'm frustrated! Can you
>>> blame me?  Are we not all at one point or another in life?  Bluntly? Deal
>>> with it, or don't read my mail! It's not rocket science!
>>> 
>>> OK, I'm not gonna keep ranting and raving about htis. I've said my peace and
>>> hopefully've been heard.  Enough is enough, in all respect fiarness to all
>>> of you all.  I rest my case.
>>> 
>>> Chris.
>>> 
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>> 
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> 
> Tim Kilburn
> Fort McMurray, AB Canada
> 
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