At 11:49 PM -0500 2005-11-16, Kevin McCann wrote:
> I'm not
> going to try to make you "get it" but I will say that the right tool for
> "the job" just doesn't exist yet. It would be nice if it did.
Mailman is not, and never will be, the be-all and end-all of
community collaboration tools. By necessity, those tools must be
all-encompassing, and mailing list management is just a small part of
the much greater picture. You can't just take a bunch of independent
tools and throw them into a blender and hope that something useful
comes out the other end.
If you want the be-all and end-all of community collaboration
tools, you're not just barking up the wrong tree, you're in the wrong
bloody forest on the wrong damn planet in the wrong friggin' solar
system in the wrong galaxy in the wrong Universe.
Mailman will move towards greater integration with database
tools, yes. But it is not now, nor will it ever be, the be-all and
end-all of community collaboration tools.
Moreover, if it was going to be such a thing, it would be highly
commercially saleable, and you wouldn't be getting it for free. You
wouldn't be getting it for anything remotely approaching free.
The ultimate community collaboration tool or free. Pick one.
> I'm not throwing stones, Brad. I've tried to make that clear.
I'm sorry, despite all your claims to the contrary, whether or
not you say you are throwing stones does not necessarily have any
bearing on whether or not you actually are throwing stones.
> Took a while to convince some on list config and member data. Still work
> to do on message archives.
I don't think there's any problem at all convincing anyone that
message archives would be very useful to have indexed in a database.
The issue is how to change the code so as to make that happen.
You might as well just cross this one off your list now, because
otherwise you're just going to make yourself look even more foolish.
> No, Brad. That is not why. The reason is that people have other
> commitments and the project is not as open as it could be so that those
> who do have more time or MONEY could help move things along.
It's an open source project. If you don't like the way it's
being run, you can always take a copy of the code and go play in your
own GPL sandbox.
But this project is as open as any other I've seen, and
considerably more open than most. Do you have any idea what kind of
work it takes to get a mod bit in FreeBSD that allows you to directly
make any changes you want to the code and without having to have them
approved by a mentor? And even then, you're only allowed to make
changes within your small part of the kingdom?
Yes, there are a relatively large number of people who have
achieved that goal, but they are a much, much, much bigger project
and much better financed, and they've been around a lot longer.
Give us a thousand or a million times as many good programmers,
millions of dollars, and a decade to put it all together, and we
might be able to do something that could potentially begin to achieve
some progress towards the ultimate collaboration tool.
> I'm not at all surprised it sounds like criticism to you. You just don't
> get it and I doubt you ever will..
When you're being abused and the person doing the abuse tells you
that you're not being abused, who and what are you going to believe?
The facts are the facts. Your claims regarding the facts do not
necessarily have any bearing whatsoever on the facts themselves.
> I have been watching this project closer than I'd like to admit for 5
> years. You're happy with the status quo, I'd prefer to try to get things
> happening.
Once again, you have mis-characterized the situation to fit your
own agenda.
It's not that I'm "happy with the status quo", it's that I'm a
realist and I understand that short of being able to take people like
Barry and Tokio and pay them money to do little but work on Mailman
full-time, we can't expect to see a Universe of change overnight.
This is going to take some time. More time than I would like,
much more time than Barry would like, and obviously a lot more time
than you would like.
The question is what are you going to do to try to help that
situation, or are you going to continue to just bluster and make
noise?
Actions speak louder than words. So, let's see some action.
If you can't come up with the money to pay for Barry to work on
Mailman3 full-time, then come up with code to fix all the problems
you've outlined. If you can't come up with code, then come up with
something else to help break your perceived logjam.
> That's where we differ. No need to be snide and arrogant.
Then stop doing one thing and claiming something else.
If you want to criticize, then please at least attempt to be
constructive in your criticism.
--
Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
SAGE member since 1995. See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.
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