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I was going to stay out of this, but Dee's email was just too provocative. Why is it that there must be a hierarchy of collecting "reasons"? Does anyone have the right to judge others for their collecting motives? Ironically, the magic word in this discussion is "appreciation." Whether its appreciation of an object as an aesthetic, historical object, a sentimental/emotional connection to the object or because the object might "appreciate" in value, the decision to buy is entirely personal and none of us has the right to question the quality of another person's collecting motives, nor deny that person a full and complete answer with respect to any question they may ask that is within the competence of the dealer to answer. For what its worth, I also suspect that the "investment scheme" verbiage in the ILAB Code of Ethics is a vestige of the post-1920s economic bust, when the propriety of "investment schemes" was a major topic of discussion. My hunch is that it was intended as a proscription against promoting books as investment vehicles to the public and was not intended as a proscription against discussing the merits of one book versus another with a collector interested in which book was the better investment or answering the broader question of how book values have changed over time. The reality of today's market (including books, maps, atlases, manuscripts, photographs, etc.) is that the best material is viewed as an investment grade collectable. I am not suggesting "get rich" speculative investments. I am referring to classic asset preservation strategies. Assets that trade in multiple currencies (and therefore can serve as a hedge against a declining domestic currency), are not subject to accounting fraud or sovereign debt issues and for which there has been a consistent, sustained and growing demand, decade over decade for a significant period of time. It should be noted that there are already several private investment funds that are buying this material for investment purposes. In each case, the funds are run by seasoned investment professionals who are also collectors. Moreover, more than one major dealer in the trade is backed by an investment from professional investors who are speculating on the trading acumen of ILAB dealers and the underlying asset values of their inventories. There are now specialty banks and investment funds who are looking to back collectables dealers, including maps and atlases, etc. The reality of today's market is that while most collectors of bread and butter items under a certain dollar threshold are not asking about the long term investment prospects of their purchases, the higher the dollar amount, the more likely the issue will arise. A dealer who answers this question with "ignore the investment value and focus solely on the item as a personal source of entertainment" is denigrating the integrity of the question and passing judgment on motives of the person asking the question. Its a reasonable question and deserves an honest answer. In the real world, there have been "investment clubs," which speculated on stocks. There are car enthusiasts who trade in classic cars, and record collectors who scour swap meets for classic vinyl. Some do it for love, some do it for the thrill of the chase, with one element of the thrill being purchasing the undervalued gem. Who among us can suggest that the quality of happiness experienced by a financial collector is some how more or less redeeming than any other type of collector? In the real world, the "investment" question is asked of professional dealers and there should be no reason for a dealer not to answer the question honestly. An honest answer includes pointing out that the mark up on antique maps is not inconsequential and that when a buyer becomes a seller, they are unlikely to obtain more than a wholesale price unless they plan to become a dealer/market maker. It includes explaining the cyclical nature of most tangible collectables and the reality that some things go up in value disproportionately to supply and may be subject to significant price corrections. A complete answer includes pointing out market segments that have collapsed over time (more on this in my second posting). Most importantly, you cannot eat a book/map, it won't keep you warm or dry nor will it improve your health and therefore, its value is pure fiat--regulated by rules of supply and demand that can evaporate or thrive based upon the fickleness of contemporary interests. In times of true crisis (such as after WWI and WWII), books were traded in Europe in bulk for slightly more than their value as firewood. One more real world hypothetical. The heir of a collector who spent $1,000,000 over 20 years contacts a dealer to discuss the disposition of the collection of the deceased collector. Is the dealer required to tell the heir that what they've inherited is not an investment grade asset with substantial value? Are we supposed to deny the heir the full breadth of our professional knowledge and experience? The same applies to the historical society looking to de-accession a portion of their holdings or a corporate client closing an office with $500,000 worth of antique maps on the wall. In each of these instances, the professional dealer is called upon to provide advice concerning the disposition of assets and to act as a quasi-fiduciary, advising a client with no understanding of the value of the assets how to go about maximizing the value. If the question arises, should I sell the full collection now or perhaps sell over time, how can we not give "investment" advice? Even if the question does not arise, should we be barred from suggesting an appropriate marketing strategy if it includes holding some of the material to be sold at a later date? As dealers, we gather a tremendous amount of information regarding current market conditions. Over time, we come to learn a great deal about trends and the other elements that allow us to judge for ourselves how to deploy our own investment capital. We do a disservice to our clients to offer less than complete and honest answers to any legitimate question. I sell maps and I provide honest advice to collectors, without judging their purchasing motives. I don't chase new investors with promises of big profits, but I would never suggest to a client about to spend $200,000 on a 1612 Ortelius Atlas that the purchase was not an "investment." There is no question that many antique maps are investments. More than $100 Million dollars a year is spent in the antique map market. Values go up and down, clients shop for the best values and speculative decisions on future values are made on a daily basis by dealers and clients. Happy holidays to all. Barry Ruderman Barry Lawrence Ruderman Antique Maps Inc. 7463 Girard Avenue La Jolla, CA 92037 (USA) [email protected] www.RareMaps.com (858) 551-8500 Member: Antiquarian Booksellers Association of America International League of Antiquarian Booksellers Gallery Hours: Monday to Friday 9am to 4pm Weekends & Evenings By Appointment ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dee Longenbaugh" <[email protected]> To: "Discussion group for map history" <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 5:57:52 PM Subject: Re: [MapHist] Alternative Investing 2011 - Mappinga Profit:Cartography and Fine Art Investment - CNBC This is a MapHist list message. News: If you don't get messages anymore, go to http://www.maphist.nl for news about the new MapHist Forum o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Bravo, George! I always tell people they should buy because they love the map and want to see it on their wall. Yes, sometimes maps become more valuable, but that is not the prime reason for buying. I, too, agree with the ILAB's stance on investment selling. Dee Dee Longenbaugh The Observatory, ABAA 299 North Franklin Street Juneau, Alaska, 99801 www.observatorybooks.com [email protected] Since 1977 Alaska specialists Lichen on the rock ignores a nearby lightning strike, and so it is with cartographers. B.E.W. Allen On Dec 23, 2011, at 12:01 PM, George Ritzlin wrote: This is a MapHist list message. News: If you don't get messages anymore, go to http://www.maphist.nl for news about the new MapHist Forum o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + I agree with Dorothy, Ed and Joel. There is good reason for the ILAB’s proscription against suggesting rare books (and maps) are an investment. Aside from the uncertain economics of "investing" in art, such an approach is antithetical to collecting. We, too, hear the investment question in our gallery and our standard reply is "you get your dividends by looking at and studying these maps. If there is residual value at the end, treat it as a bonus." We also suggest a minimum holding period of twenty years to overcome the high transaction costs of the collectible market, and tell people the best financial results have gone to those who are the true collectors. They buy the best maps they can afford and hold them as long as possible. "Investing" in maps or art is a bit like Zen – you hit the target by not aiming at it. It is worthwhile to consider a longer history than ten years. If I recall correctly, when Professor Koeman wrote his little booklet on Blaeu’s Grand Atlas he observed that the price of the atlas went nowhere for two centuries. It is only in more recent times that prices rose. The general price increases we think of as continuous really began in the early 20 th century (some economists argue the late 19 th century), and were preceded by nearly a century of no inflation or disinflation. For those interested in the broad sweep of prices I commend David Hackett Fischer’s "The Great Wave: Price Revolutions and the Rhythm of History" on European prices since the building of the Cathedral of Chartes, which demonstrates that patterns of price change are quite uneven over time. Given the present economic uncertainty, it would be presumptuous to suggest recent trends will continue unabated. For something closer to the map market, read Gerald Reitlinger’s three-volume "The Economics of Taste" on the rise and fall of prices for paintings and objets de art, from the mid-18th century to the mid-20th century. I can think of no better way to conclude than to cite Mr. Reitlinger’s introduction to his third volume (published 1970, pages 11-12). "It cannot be denied that enormous profits have been made in the past two decades by those who followed fashionable trends...in order to sell-out a few year later, but these are not investors but speculators. The only investors are those who never meant to invest at all. Those who bought some twenty years ago...may have seen their treasures multiply in value... But they will either have ceased to collect altogether or they will have joined the general rat-race, selling dear in order to buy even dearer. Those who bought from income or pin-money will compete with those who pledge their entire capital. That is the meaning of art as an investment , nothing less than the extinction of true collecting." George Ritzlin ----- Original Message ----- From: Geographicus Antique Maps To: 'Discussion group for map history' Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 1:37 PM Subject: RE: [MapHist] Alternative Investing 2011 - Mappinga Profit:Cartography and Fine Art Investment - CNBC This is a MapHist list message. News: If you don't get messages anymore, go to http://www.maphist.nl for news about the new MapHist Forum o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Joel – We do not advise clients to purchase maps for investment purposes – though we like all dealers invest in old maps and must recognize that they do have investment value, and I am not talking about 3% inflation. As with any physical object, be it a house, a car, or an old map, liquidity is an issue, but it is an issue that anyone purchasing such an object is aware of upfront. Also like any investment, investors in physical objects need a knowledge base regarding what they are buying. Just as one does not randomly purchase stock or houses or cars and expect get rich, one should exercise the same caution in acquiring an antique. Strategic knowledge-based acquisitions however (from dealers and from other venues like auctions) can yield handsome profits over time. If it were not so dealers would all be in the poorhouse. The premise behind fine art investment funds is as sound as and bears a similar risk level as any object asset investment – I see no reason why such funds should not include historical artifacts, like maps, as part of their acquisition portfolios. Kevin From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Joel Kovarsky Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 1:21 PM To: Discussion group for map history Subject: Re: [MapHist] Alternative Investing 2011 - Mapping a Profit:Cartography and Fine Art Investment - CNBC I think this is different than the point Dorothy Sloan was making, which was seconded by Ed Dahl. The idea that the price of any good rises over time and with inflation is quite different than the recommendation of using old maps as an investment strategy. This business is hardly the equivalent of an index fund, and has none of the liquidity or regulatory constraints that go into financial vehicles (OK, I know recent history questions some of the regulatory issues). I think you tread on very thin ice advising someone to use old maps as a significant investment vehicle. The ILAB (and IAMA) Code of Ethics rightly admonish not to use these materials as "investment schemes." The idea of investing in maps has something in common with investing in art, so that the higher end of the market is likely to yield the best returns over time: you had better have both funding and knowledge to forage that world on a consistent basis. And there are exceptions to everything. Joel Kovarsky On 12/23/2011 12:04 PM, Geographicus Antique Maps wrote: This is a MapHist list message. News: If you don't get messages anymore, go to http://www.maphist.nl for news about the new MapHist Forum o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + o + Ed – I disagree. “Is my map likely to increase in value over time?” is one of the most common questions dealers are asked. In is not unethical to answer truthfully. While we always encourage our clients to purchase maps first because they enjoy them and not directly as an investment, the answer to this question is “most likely”. In the short term, unless you are a dealer or very savvy, it is indeed difficult to purchase a map at a retail gallery and turn a profit, however, in the long term there is significant potential for profit. The historical increase in map value over a considerable time (10+ years) is chartable to anyone with access to historical sales data – which should be pretty much everyone in this list. While certain maps, like the stock market, can bubble in value for short periods of time, the overall and consistent trend is for maps to increase in value as time passes. Most dealers, like ourselves, price maps in accordance with historical retail and auction values for similar items. On such a model a natural increase in value can be reasonably anticipated. Kevin _______________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list [email protected] http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist _______________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list [email protected] http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist _______________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list [email protected] http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist _______________________________________________ MapHist: E-mail discussion group on the history of cartography hosted by the Faculty of Geosciences, University of Utrecht. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the University of Utrecht. The University of Utrecht does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. List Information: http://www.maphist.nl Maphist mailing list [email protected] http://mailman.geo.uu.nl/mailman/listinfo/maphist
