Luke,
I really can't see the point of storing Hydrogen on board a car at the
moment. At one time there was a BUS in the US that was trialling running
on a Hydrogen IC Engine, the problem is where does it fill up. NASA has
used Hydrogen for years lifting the space shuttle into orbit and for the
electrics on board using fuel cell technology, they use it because of
its high energy content. I have read that GM were cooling the Hydrogen
to something like -218deg celcius in order to store it for use with
their fuel cell technology.
I'm just waiting for onboard Hydrogen reformers to become available for
use on Internal Combustion engines.
GM and ExxonMobil have supposedly recently developed an on-board fuel
processor/reformer that can extract 80% of the Hydrogen from petrol for
use with their fuel cell. Funny their doing research on petrol to
Hydrogen and not H2O huh? Problem is most current car electric motors
will only do ~50kW, and storing and suppling the power for that
continually is the problem. The new 42V system, is an improvment but
only for accessories still nowhere near enough for a drivetrain.
Check out the following information I found regarding different fuels.
-------------
Typical values for commercial fuels in megajoules/kilogram are [37]:-
Gross Nett
Hydrogen 141.9 120.0
Carbon to Carbon monoxide 10.2 -
Carbon to Carbon dioxide 32.8 -
Sulfur to sulfur dioxide 9.16 -
Natural Gas 53.1 48.0
Liquified petroleum gas 49.8 46.1
Aviation gasoline 46.0 44.0
Automotive gasoline 45.8 43.8
Kerosine 46.3 43.3
Diesel 45.3 42.5
Obviously, for automobiles, the nett calorific value is appropriate, as
the water is emitted as vapour. The engine can not utilise the
additional energy available when the steam is condensed back to water.
The calorific value is the maximum energy that can be obtained from the
fuel by combustion, but thereality of modern SI engines is that thermal
efficiencies of only 20-40% may be obtained, this limit being due to
engineering and material constraints that prevent optimum thermal
conditions being used. CI engines can achieve higher thermal
efficiencies, usually over a wider operating range as well. Note that
combustion efficiencies are high, it is the thermal efficiency of the
engine is low due to losses. For a water-cooled SI engine with 25%
useful work at the crankshaft, the losses may consist of 35% (coolant),
33% (exhaust), and 12% (surroundings).
------------
cheers,
Craig.
Luke Clough wrote:
>
> Hydrogen has a lower energy density than petrol, its danger comes from its
> ability to mix rapidly with oxygen. Last I read the difficulty was storage with
> in the car in a form that allows for high enough energy density (by weight and
> by volume). Pursuits were being made in hydrogen absorption by some metallic
> powders that allowed slow release as pressure drops (no fast escape so no big
> bang if it ignites). I think BMW had a hydrogen powered vehicle with a range of
> 300km(few years ago now). Hydrogen is generated simply from water by passing
> electric current through it. I think Oxygen forms on the positive electrode and
> hydrogen on the negative, at least that is what I would assume (keeping in mind
> my last chemistry class was in 1995). As for technology patents being bought by
> petrol companies, patents have a limited life span after which time they lapse
> and anyone can produce the technology. Changes will eventually occur when oil
> becomes to valuable/expensive to just burn. Problem with hydrogen still comes
> down to economic viability of hydrogen production, I can't see it happening
> until cheap high efficiency solar cells are available or maybe some new catalyst
> technology.
>
> As for fuel cell technology, how heavy is your alternator? How powerful is it
> 60A*14V=840W not a lot huh. I over saw the installation of some 132kw electric
> motors, they are quite large and I would suggest would affect handling
> significantly! On the plus side advances in power electronics and inverter
> schemes make cheap induction motors very flexible. Still they would have to make
> them significantly lighter/smaller.
>
> Luke Clough - almost graduated electrical eng.
>
> Brad HALLETT wrote:
>
> > Lets not forget though that the Hindenburg had a rather embarassing moment
> > caused by Hydrogen. Extremely volatile gas and I would hate to be using it
> > for anything. I have made a Hydrogen generator in the lab and witnessed its
> > effect. Worse than my missus after a big night on Crown Lager and Cocktail
> > Onions.
> >
> > OH SHIT HERE SHE COMES QUICK HIDE ME.........
> >
> > Regards
> > Brad HALLETT
> > http://www.powerup.com.au/~bhallett
> >
> > Proudly Endorsing:
> > ...DATRATS...
> > http://203.33.35.34
> > Datsun Dedicated
> > For Nissan Motorsport Components
> > Professional Budget Priced competition equipment
> > Contact Errol SMITH
> > email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of jamesf
> > Sent: Friday, 3 November 2000 10:53
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: performance gas!
> >
> > Not as long as there are Big Oil/fuel companies around...
> >
> > I read (back in the 80's) about a guy that invented a system to
> > run your car on the Hydrogen from water... but one of the petrol
> > companies bought out the patents and have never released it.
> >
> > My grandfather use to distribute a device called the Electro Lube Refiner
> > Sold hundreds of them to the trucking companies and the sugar mills
> > all around QLD..... This thing Actually cleans (while you drive) your oil
> > of all contaminates and water and makes it so that you NEVER have to
> > change your oil (just have to top up to replace oil burnt in the motor etc)
> > It's for real and it works.... Have got the evidence from hundreds of
> > transport companies etc... (unlike some of the copies like the Frans Filter
> > which didn't have a heated dispersion plate to remove water and used
> > Toilet Paper rolls for the filter which removed all the additives from the
> > oil as well... not a good thing)
> > But when it came time to try and get it into passenger cars and the petrol
> > companies found out they put a stop to it all... Imagine what it would do to
> > their profits if no one ever had to change their oil.... Without the support
> > from the oil companies he had no chance of getting Holden or Ford to put
> > the thing into their cars at factory level ....
> >
> > Cya
> > JamesF
> >
> > Craig Overend wrote:
> >
> > > My ultimate
> > > performance fuel source is Hydrogen obtained from water, H20, there are
> > > quite a few people that claim to have worked it out. It'd cost you
> > > nothing to fill your car up with high octane fuel! I see it as just a
> > > matter of time.
> > >
> > > Craig.
> > >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> >
> > James Fitness
> > Director
> > Data Scribe Australia Pty Ltd
> > http://www.datascribe.com.au
> > Computers and Supplies
> >
> > OZDAT Online
> > http://www.datascribe.com.au/ozdatonline/index.htm
> >
>
> --
> Buck...
>
> _______________________
>
> Luke Clough
> Monash University
> internal 56219
> external 990 56219
> <Corrupted Inc.>
> _______________________
>
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