can everyone get ova the fact the 4's will always b beta then 6's please -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Greenbury [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, 19 November 2001 13:44 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl?
ccking What uni you at? Be sure to get in touch when you're in Melb and we'll catch up at the SAE event. Anybody else from the list gonna be at the FSAE event?? Andrew > Im just finishing first year (mech eng) now and ive sighed on for the SAE > team next year. > > Im going down to melbourne to check it out this year actually december 7-9 i > think it is. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew Greenbury" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 3:34 PM > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > hey Daniel > > > > what year you in? are you involved in University of Queensland's > > formula SAE team? > > > > Andrew > > > > > I just had a design exam this morning........................... two > hours > > > of pure torture! > > > Interesting and valuable subject but the lecturer is a bit of a toss! > > > Anyway got to go back to study, I've got a fluids/thermo exam that I > need to > > > study for, hopefully it will go a bit better than my design exam. > > > Keep on dattoing!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > > > > > Daniel Kroehn > > > Datrats, quality Datsun performance parts > > > www.Datrats.com.au > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 1:21 PM > > > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > Guilty as charged, > > > > I am supposed to be working - but it is more fun to follow these > threads > > > :) > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > From: "Daniel Kroehn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > Date: 15/11/2001 13:04:42 > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > I never thought of about the engine been a degree of freedom all by > > > itself. > > > > > Hey Nick, are you by chance a mech engineer? I've just read a few > of > > > your > > > > > posts and noticed you mention a alot of things I've been learning > about > > > this > > > > > year at uni. > > > > > > > > > > Daniel Kroehn > > > > > Datrats, quality Datsun performance parts > > > > > www.Datrats.com.au > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2001 12:31 PM > > > > > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, I suppose that you are limited with the flywheel if you > still > > > want > > > > > to run a starter motor and idle below 1500rpm. > > > > > > The stock clutch and flywheel is about 20Kg from memory. What kind > of > > > > > weight are you talking about (~5Kg?) > > > > > > In first gear it works out something like 1Kg from the flywheel is > > > > > equivalent to 5Kg from the car. I suppose that when people are > putting > > > > > carbon fibre here there and everywhere saving a couple of grams of > > > rotating > > > > > mass is helpful. > > > > > > > > > > > > When modifying the crank you could consider the aerodynamics of > the > > > > > spinning crank. You could ground the counterweights to a knife edge, > > > polish > > > > > etc.. Use a scraper and windage tray. Gotta be good for 5Hp or more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The rules don't generally allow it, but I have been thinking of an > > > engine > > > > > brace that stops the engine rocking, or solid engine mounts. > > > > > > By removing that degree of freedom you would increase the > sensitivity > > > to > > > > > throttle response so you can open up earlier in the corner without > > > > > wheelspin. > > > > > > When you are chasing the ultimate I reckon this is an overlooked > area. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: "E Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > Subject: RE: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > Date: 15/11/2001 13:03:04 > > > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nick, > > > > > > > When you have already lightened the flywheel to maximum with a > > > > > reasonable > > > > > > > safety factor so it will not self destruct, the next thing to go > are > > > the > > > > > > > counterweights and a reduced balance factor. Its one of those > things > > > > > where > > > > > > > you take of more and more till it goes bang, then back of a > notch or > > > > > two. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > Feral Errol > > > > > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > http://www.datrats.com.au/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > > > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, 15 November 2001 12:36 PM > > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Errol, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am guessing that the only reason to chase smoother engine > running > > > is > > > > > to > > > > > > > remove the high frequency vibrations. > > > > > > > This means that you can rev higher for longer before connecting > > > > > > > rod/piston/big-end bolt fatigue failures occur. > > > > > > > And if your engine can rev 500 rpm more than the opposition, you > can > > > get > > > > > 500 > > > > > > > revs worth of power by changing cam profiles etc... > > > > > > > If you are rev limited, then I suppose the only advantage is > > > increased > > > > > > > reliability > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want to reduce rotational inertia you are better off > > > lightening > > > > > the > > > > > > > flywheel. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish that my engine was as well built as a race engine, an > > > 8,000rpm > > > > > > > pick-a-part L20 mmm... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: "E Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > Date: 14/11/2001 21:12:38 > > > > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yep Daniel, > > > > > > > > The Mitsi Astrons use counterbalance shafts. They have > > > counterweights > > > > > that > > > > > > > > must be timed to knock out some of those secondary forces???? > > > > > > > > If people are looking to stretch the grey matter in engine > > > designs, > > > > > how > > > > > > > > about looking at the balance factors in engines. The balance > > > factor is > > > > > the > > > > > > > > ratio of the conrod and piston assembly masses compared to the > > > crank > > > > > > > > counterweight mass/es. A balance factor of unity would in > theory > > > have > > > > > > > > minimal secondary force losses except at 90 degrees and 270 > > > degrees > > > > > crank > > > > > > > > rotation rotation from TDC where the rod design causes some > > > losses. I > > > > > have > > > > > > > > seen race Datto engines running balance factors as low as 30 > > > percent > > > > > to > > > > > > > > reduce rotational inertia. This is a testament to the strength > of > > > > > their > > > > > > > > basic design. People overseas are doing some interesting > things > > > with > > > > > > > balance > > > > > > > > as most of the secondary forces are energy that is lost and > > > wasted. > > > > > > > > Any though or LOL's???? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Feral Errol > > > > > > > > mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > http://www.datrats.com.au/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of > Daniel > > > > > Kroehn > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 14 November 2001 11:43 AM > > > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sorry trev, your right on that one! Static balancing is only > used > > > > > when > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > distribution of mass is known or can be measured without > > > dynamically > > > > > mving > > > > > > > > the system. Its hard to put what is going on in a cylinder > into > > > > > words!! > > > > > > > > Little animations make things so much clearer! From what they > > > tried > > > > > to > > > > > > > > teach us, a six usually has its journals spaced 120 degrees > apart > > > to > > > > > make > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > balance the primary forces of piston motion. The secondary > force > > > as I > > > > > > > said > > > > > > > > acts perpendicular to the direction of travel of the piston > which > > > can > > > > > > > cause > > > > > > > > a "rocking" moment inside the engine. That's why sometimes > masses > > > > > which > > > > > > > > counter-rotate to the direction of crankshaft movement are > used, > > > to > > > > > > > correct > > > > > > > > this. Someone told me that the 2.6l astron engines have such > an > > > > > > > > arrangement, can anyone confirm this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daniel Kroehn > > > > > > > > Datrats, quality Datsun performance parts > > > > > > > > www.Datrats.com.au > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > From: "Pooley, Trevor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 10:00 AM > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daniel, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My understanding of engine balancing is that only the rods > and > > > > > pistons > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > statically balanced. The reciprocating parts are dynamically > > > > > balanced. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found this link about L6 harmonics. > > > > > > > > > http://www.zhome.com/ZCMnL/tech/harmonics.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know from people in my club that a good quality > aftermarket > > > crank > > > > > > > front > > > > > > > > > pulley is a must for L6 race engines as the harmonics are > great > > > > > enough > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > destroy the std front pulley or even snap crankshafts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The last time I saw a pic of an L6 crank it was not mearly > an > > > > > extended > > > > > > > L4 > > > > > > > > > crank with journals 180deg apart. Although I can't remeber > the > > > exact > > > > > > > > > configuration at the moment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > Trev > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > From: Daniel Kroehn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, 14 November 2001 9:51 > > > > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It hard to get your mind around this shit, I just had a > three > > > hour > > > > > exam > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > balancing and the like at uni yesterday. Its not static > > > balancing > > > > > like > > > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > > you get the pistons, rods, crank, flywheel combo balanced, > its > > > all > > > > > about > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > dynamic balancing where froces from the piston firing create > > > forces > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > moments which lead to imbalances inside the engine. Can > someone > > > tell > > > > > me > > > > > > > > why > > > > > > > > > the secondary forces in a 6 completly cancel out as I'm not > 100% > > > > > clear > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > why, I guess I'm picturing it as a four only with two more > > > > > > > cylinders(hence > > > > > > > > > primary force cancelation). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Daniel Kroehn > > > > > > > > > Datrats, quality Datsun performance parts > > > > > > > > > www.Datrats.com.au > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 8:20 AM > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if your engine is built by Swiss watchmakers with no > > > expense > > > > > > > > spared, > > > > > > > > > you cannot escape the unbalance caused by the engine > > > configuration. > > > > > > > > > > But of course if the engine has been manufactured to > sloppy > > > > > tolerances > > > > > > > > > then it will be much worse than an engine built by our Swiss > > > mates. > > > > > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: "mark krawczuk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > Date: 13/11/2001 21:39:44 > > > > > > > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > hi, so what if their un balanced, anybody doing up a > high > > > > > > > > performance > > > > > > > > > > > engine always gets the engine full > > > > > ballanced........................ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mark k > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 2:30 PM > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Beautiful... :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2001 13:15 > > > > > > > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The theory behind engine configuration is about > balance > > > and > > > > > > > > packaging > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A 'V' engine (except v12) is fundamentally unbalanced. > i.e > > > > > they > > > > > > > > shake > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > vibrate because all the rotating and reciprocating > > > components > > > > > are > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > fully > > > > > > > > > > > > balanced. > > > > > > > > > > > > V engines are compact, this is their advantage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > An in-line four cylinder also unbalanced - but you can > add > > > two > > > > > > > > balance > > > > > > > > > > > > shafts to compensate > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > straight 6 engines are fully balanced for most > harmonics, > > > that > > > > > is > > > > > > > > why > > > > > > > > > BMW > > > > > > > > > > > > still use them when a v-6 would be lighter, cheaper, > and > > > more > > > > > > > > compact. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Flat 'boxer' engines are fundamentally balanced and > use a > > > very > > > > > > > > short, > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > therefore stiff, crankshaft. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is why Subaru and alfa-sud engines are so smooth > and > > > > > > > responsive > > > > > > > > > > > > compared with inline fours. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Straight 8's are fully balanced but the crankshaft is > long > > > and > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > torsionally stiff and you'd need a long engine bay to > fit > > > it > > > > > all > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PS just because some engines are smoother than others > it > > > > > doesn't > > > > > > > > mean > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > they can't go just hard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so can you explain why? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Drag cars are v-8's because noone makes straight > > > 8's... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If your theory is true why aren't all motors Vees? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about the boxers? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: James Marmont > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2001 12:08 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > no way!!!!!! Thats why all top fuel drags are "V"s > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2001 12:42 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that's just for space reasons I thought... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: James Marmont > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2001 11:20 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: RE: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the "v" says it all > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2001 11:32 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Subject: V-6 or 4cyl? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey All, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does anyone know whether it is the number of > cylinders > > > or > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > capacity > > > > > > > > > > > > of an > > > > > > > > > > > > > > engine that determines it's torque? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is would a 2l V6 have more torque that a 2l 4 > > > cyl?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Iggy (dreaming again) Sandejas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sydney NSW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Datsun 1600 FJ20t > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This message was sent through MyMail > > > http://www.mymail.com.au > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This message was sent through MyMail > http://www.mymail.com.au > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This message was sent through MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --membersozdat------------------------------------------------------- OZDAT Mailing List Please Note:- Send (un)subscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Send submissions to [EMAIL PROTECTED] No unauthorised redistribution of this email http://www.ozdat.com/ozdatonline/index.htm http://www.ozdat.com/ozdatonline/listindex.html http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------
