> On Tue, 2009-11-03 at 11:50 -0800, DAddYE wrote:
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> I want to propose a little refactoring of merb.
>>
>> Now at the first view Merb for new guys same to be a little
>> complicated and with a lot lot lot lot gems, I like so much gems, but
>> 20+ gems when I do a fresh install of merb is a little strange.
>>
>
> Hmm, I have one (core). That runs a pretty complex rules engine. Not
> sure why you would /need/ 20.

yea, if you do gem install merb-core, gem install merb

>
>> Im very interested in using merb sponsor it. As I say through pm with
>> the merb staff my society have a big experience with ruby framework
>> and personally I made some like 100+ websites/webapps.
>>
>> So, for me is necessary focus to some points:
>>
>> 1) Make merb more coincise (was born with some django philosophy...
>> but now?)
>
> If you mean more concise by having more gems then I think you may
> benefit from taking a look at how many of those gems you need. For me
> merb is as concise as I need.

As you say below  there are some aspects that are not clean:

- merb-actions-args
- merb-params-protections

And for me

- merb-auth
- merb-slices

>
>
>> 2) Make merb a little smaller (in terms of gems)
>
> Smaller than one ;-)

One with a lot of dependencies (if you mean gem install merb)

>
>
>> 3) Make merb more stable but revolutionary
>>
>
> Haven't had any stability issues and we use it in production across a
> cluster.

At the moment Im not using it in production, but seeing some commit  
don't seems to be right (for the use of merb that I need)

- Little dependency issue 
http://github.com/merb/merb/commit/7fc90aac1ae4204cafa7afb3a83899f05e11ddec
- New repo 
http://github.com/merb/merb/commit/a95a90b1fcc80897b32ed064d8defba3dd268306
- Caching problem 
http://github.com/merb/merb/commit/923406abf993b4e82938a342c506dff1e0abcad5
- helpers (select) problem 
http://github.com/merb/merb/commit/e2e3866efa39e5a307fdd406005e0012c02e3c90
...

I know that for example rails have some than 100+ commits for day, but  
the posted thing above for example for me was braking problem.

>
>> 1) More Coincise:
>>
>> Now in merb for do one thing we have a lot of way for do that, I love
>> extensibility but for me I necessary (at the moment) have a one/two
>> way for do a thing, then if a developper want can easily extend it.
>>
>> Some examples of question of friends that tell me:
>>
>> Why merb-gen stack / core ?
>> Why merb-gen flat / very flat ?
>>
>
> We originally used merb-gen to generate a very flat layout but you're
> right, it isn't needed as 'very flat' can be done by hand.
>
>
>
>> Why we can't simply have merb-gen app and merb-gen tiny-app ? Two
>> coincise way ... and a developper can easly extend it.
>>
>
> Don't disagree other than to say how does having the other options get
> in your way? Having the very-flat option helped bootstrap our use of
> merb last year

For example if I need merb-gen admin I can (because merb is flexible)  
build my own generator.

>>
>> Why we have gems for merb-actions-args? Why is not in the core?
>>
>
> Never used it, not even sure what it is. Probably that's a good  
> argument
> for not having it in the core.

Yea, but for me the first time that I see It I was confused.

>>
>> For example personally I forgotten that merb-action-args is
>> incompatible with ruby 1.9, so why confuse a lot of us (not all) with
>> them?
>>
>
> Thanks, didn't know that but doesn't that argue against having it in  
> the
> core - our app seems to run fine with 1.9.1

Im also, (In my fork i merge It in the core) and then a member of the  
team tell me about that.

>
>> Why merb-params-protections? Why is not in the core? At the moment I
>> don't remember the answer
>>
>
> Again, we have a perfectly good use-case - we have production apps not
> using it and I'm sure we wouldn't be alone.

Is that I mean: make merb more concise

>
>> 2) Make merb a little smaller (in terms of gems):
>>
>
> One of your points above seem to argue against this. Also wouldn't  
> more
> optional gems when brought into core potentially reduce stability?

I think core team at the moment need to focus only on:

- merb-core
- merb-cache
- merb-assets
- merb-gen
- merb-helpers
- merb-mailer

And (at the moment) forget to spent a lot of times on other gems.

>
>
>> 3) Make merb more stable but revolutionary
>>
>> As I say now (for me) is the moment to focus for use merb in
>> production. A slogan is necessary few things that work well!
>>
>
> We're in production for a year now without problems and our use of  
> Merb
> is only growing!

As I say before I tried a lot of times to make a production websites  
with merb but always I found a breaking problem.

>
>
>> Then, is time to give some thing new to the ruby scene, as Sinatra  
>> do.
>>
>> Merb now can't be a "mirror" of rails but a new framework.
>>
>> For example, merb-slices, some love it some don't love it, personally
>> I hate it, not because I don't apreciate it but because I very very
>> very complicated read the code written from antother person. Slices
>> like rails-engines are not linear. Why we can "duplicate" a thing  
>> that
>> just exist and we don't try to create a new way?
>>
>> I love one thing of django, the multiapp support.
>>
>> I dream but for me a thing like that will be beautiful:
>>
>>  $ merb-gen project store
>>  $ cd store
>>  $ merb-gen app core
>>  $ merb-gen app frontend-ecommerce-1
>>  $ merb-gen app frontend-ecommerce-2
>>  $ merb-gen app frontend-ecommerce-3
>>
>> Then our dir can be like this: http://gist.github.com/225365
>>
>> We can also made  a routing like sinatra + sinatra-map that can be
>> "innovative"
>>
>> Other things in my opinion is very important to discuss:

What is your thought about above?

>> - Add a I18n (for example 30% of our sites use it)
>
> We use unicode and unicode-chars.

Yea but if you have a I18n site, how do u manage translation or  
localization of time/time zone?

>> - Use DM as default? There are big big project (like twitter) that  
>> use
>> it? Is stable?
>>
>
> We don't use an orm at all. Love the fact that we don't need to bloat
> the core with this.

Yea, for me is the time to ship a framework with a non orm engine like  
datamapper or your couchdb

I think also is the time to ship a framework with HAML instead old erb.

>
>
>>
>> At the end for me is necessary big refactoring so all of us can focus
>> to the **very important things** and use check test stress the "core"
>> services of merb.
>
> We're pretty happy with the core. I wouldn't be keen to have a big
> increase in this. Remember "no code has fewer bugs than no code"

Yea, but I think that mantain and make good docs about:

- merb-actions-args
- merb-exceptions (remember I love it)
- merb-param-protection
- merb-slices

If the merb team was reduced is wasted time... no?

>
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> >
>


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