I am way behind in my reading and am just reading the list messages from the last week so I am sure that everybody has formed their opinions and do not need me to confuse things. But I am going to make a few observations anyway:
First; "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." The Federal Reserve System is a central bank setup by Congress to service and control the banking system. It is not a private corporation with private, or any, shareholders. The Fed manages the money supply, but there would still be a money supply even if there was no Fed. Except the money supply (volume) size would not be managed at all. I am not sure about your reference about new money as debt, but if you look at the definitions of M1, M2, and M3 you will see that most money is sort of debt. Here is how it works, and it does not matter if you have paper currency or use gold and silver coins. You get some currency, or a check, or dig some silver out of the ground. You take it and deposit it in a local bank because you do not want to carry it around. The bank takes some of your deposit and loans (a debt) to some one who needs it as operating funds in his growing business. That person deposits his check in his bank, and that bank loans some that deposit out. And so on and so forth. As long as you have banks taking deposits and making loans, most of the money supply will not be in the form of currency, or gold and silver. If I remember correctly, only about 5 to 20% of the money supply is in the form of currency, and that is only because the Fed tells the banks that they have to hold back a higher percentage of their deposits as reserves than they would normally. If you want to see what economic conditions would be like without the Fed, then go back and read the economic history before the Fed was created. Congress did not create the Fed and give it as much independence as they did because the banking system and economy were peaches and cream. Congress passes a lot of laws during any session so it may have been coincidence or not. You would have to look at the legislative history and the problems Congress was addressing before linking the Fed to the income tax. Managing the money supply is not an easy task. The economist Milton Friedman suggested decades ago that the Fed should program a computer to manage the money supply with steady growth. But he never came up with a program, and I doubt there is a computer large enough to run it if he did. You are dealing with only partially correct information after the fact. The problem the Fed has is that its job of TRYING to guide the economy is like piloting a raft of barges up a river in the fog. You can not see ahead of the lead barge, you can only see the banks on either side, and then only partially. Try to get a computer program to do that. Guernsey and China are not very good examples to support any economic theory. Guernsey has what population? May be a couple thousand people, and then only during tourist season? China may not be a pure Communist state, but they are a single party oligarchy with a semi-controlled economy. The State still owns a very large percentage of all the companies. They have been holding the value of the Yuan LOWER (undervalued) than market to push exports and reduce imports. And considering the systemic corruption through out the government and government controlled companies, I would not classify them as a free and open market. Except may be for the market in influence and bribes. If the comments I have read in this thread are an accurate representation of the book's content, then I have another book I can skip. Besides, I have projects lined up until a year after I am dead. ________________________________________ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason C Sent: Friday, 27 June, 2008 12:10 To: 'Tony Cooper'; Jim Wilson Cc: [email protected] Subject: RE: NPC: NMC: Oil futures bidded up by the Hedge Funds. And aboutthemonetary system... I just saw this reply in my spam box ... *&^%$# POS Yahoo spam filter. Jim, All of your comments are addressed very well in the book. The argument of getting a private corporation / central bank like the Fed to create money to loan to government, instead of the government issuing its own money and owing it to noone, in order to "control" gov't spending, ignores the fact that gov't is effectively issued a blank check by the Fed anyway; both methods are inflationary, if more money is issued than that which covers economic growth. (Important concept - inflation is caused by an increase in the money supply that is greater than the increase in the sum total economic output. The past 4 years the Fed has expanded the money supply at unprecedented rates) Don't get me wrong, gov't spends waaaaaaay too much, however, realize that over HALF of what we pay in Federal income taxes, goes to servicing the INTEREST alone on the gov't's debt to the Fed, which created the money out of nothing. The most pernicious thing about our DEBT-BASED fiat currency system, is that: ALL NEW MONEY that is created is a DEBT; the money newly created does NOT include that to cover the INTEREST payments. The interest payments will have to come from SOMEONE ELSE taking out a loan. This is a mathematical paradox, which guarantees that the only way for the system to keep going is EVER INCREASING DEBT. The net effect of this is that ALL MONEY in circulation is gradually replaced by DEBT. This explains the perpetually rising debt. At the rate we are going, by 2012 or so, we will need to be taxed at 65% JUST to pay INTEREST on the Federal debt... mostly on money printed by the Fed. It is NO COINCIDENCE that the Income Tax was passed THE SAME YEAR as the Federal Reserve Act (1913) - it is part of its design. A debt based fiat currency system, is an INHERENTLY UNSTABLE SYSTEM, leading to BOOM AND BUST CYCLES. Boom and bust economic cycles are NOT natural, they are simply a result of having a debt based fiat currency system. Note how Guernsey and China have not had busts. The above paradox is called "the impossible contract" by the book's author. It is described but not named, in the following 45 minute cartoon slideshow: http://www.moneyasdebt.net/ and in the following allegorical story: http://www.relfe.com/plus_5_.html A blogger started calling it "The Compound Interest Paradox", and describes it in a 7 part post: http://fskrealityguide.blogspot.com/2008/06/compound-interest-paradox-revisited.html ---------------- re: China's yuan being "overvalued"... it is a nation's sovereign right to choose what their exchange rate should be. This is not to be confused with the desire "free market" ... BTW China is NOT communist anymore - they have way more capitalistic tendencies than, say, India. I base this on conversations with guys who have done business in both countries. Letting a currency "float", allows it to be attacked by the Hedge Funds (yes, the same guys who bidded up oil futures), which have been part of several concerted efforts to wage "economic war" on currencies. Among their victims are Thailand, Indonesia, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, and so on. Here is a chapter describing it, from the Web of Debt book: "The Tequila Trap" http://www.webofdebt.com/excerpts/chapter-22.php Cheers, Jason --- On Mon, 6/23/08, Jim Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From: Jim Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: NPC: NMC: Oil futures bidded up by the Hedge Funds. And about themonetary system... To: "'Jason C'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "'Tony Cooper'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected] Date: Monday, June 23, 2008, 2:04 PM Jason, Thanks for the links, I'll check them out. I'm anything but an economics guy, and I understand why you are against the gov't paying interest on it's own money, but it seems to me that that acts as a 2nd natural check against the government devaluing it's own currency when it puts more money into circulation. I know nothing of Guernsey , except that I just found it is 31 sq. miles, and has no defense budget -so it may not be a good example for a large government; it also a 45 million pound, and growing, fiscal "black hole". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernsey ) With regard to China, economists the world over have been complaining that the yuan is artificially propped up to avoid inflation and keep China's competitive advantage of low cost production and bring foreign currency - like the USD - into the country. Now, with the shrinking of the globe enabling their own economic engine to run hotter, their currency will increase in value, and that "artificial" holding should be required less, but in any case, I fail to see where it can't be honestly argued that the currency in the communist state is subject to the same economic forces that drive most currencies. The reason I likened it to a perpetual motion machine is that it seems to me that the natural tendency for governments, like people, is to spend more and more and when you run out you get more to spend by borrowing or, in this case, printing more. Since either of these devalues the money, left unchecked, it's a runaway train. Finally, don't misunderstand that I like the idea of the government paying interest to the Federal Reserve but I also partially disagree with your statement that "This [interest] explains the spiraling Federal debt". I agree that the interest is a large part of it, but like my analogy of the everyday consumer, the government's real problem is that it spent, and continues to spend, more than it can afford, and now it owes it's life to the "credit card company" - the Federal Reserve. Jim ________________________________________ From: Jason C [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 4:14 PM To: Jim Wilson; 'Tony Cooper' Cc: [email protected] Subject: RE: NPC: NMC: Oil futures bidded up by the Hedge Funds. And about themonetary system... LOL not quite. I don't have time at the moment to type a more detailed response, but you can read parts of the book here: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=ILMGrEC524UC&dq=%22web+of+debt%22&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=xDrvE4l5UI&sig=gqGEIbh2IwrRNd4EGgtYSTDAPVU&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result and here: http://webofdebt.com (click the free chapters on the right upper side of the page) The book is extensively referenced, and I tried checking out some of the references... Apparently the governments of the island nation of Guernsey, and China , are both issuing their own currency, and thus does not need to go into debt. Guernsey and China 's governments, do NOT have a public debt. Guernsey has been doing this for centuries now. They have a flat 20% income tax, no inheritance tax, no capital gains tax... Passing on the power of "seignorage" (gov't creating its own money), to a privately owned central bank such as the Federal Reserve, which then charges interest on it, seems particularly odious to me. This explains the spiraling Federal debt. At the rate we're going, taxes will have to go to 65% JUST to pay the INTEREST ALONE on this debt, interest on money created out of thin air. Jim Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Now were back to "perpetual motion" - it works just as well with currency as it does machinery. ________________________________________ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony Cooper Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 3:00 PM To: Jason C Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: NPC: NMC: Oil futures bidded up by the Hedge Funds. And about themonetary system... "This begs the question: Why doesn't government create its own money for its own expenses (called "non-debt based fiat currency"), instead of giving the power to create money to a private corporation (i.e. the Federal Reserve), which collects interest on it?" IIRC my history correctly... Napoleon tried to do just that.... Jason C wrote: No comments on the links I sent, eh? Jason C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Please, enough partisan talk - the Republicrats are bowling on the same team, and they're creaming us, on the other team. I agree with the petition. However, the MAIN reason oil prices are going up is the HEDGE FUNDS run by Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, JP Morgan Chase. Why are they doing it? http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/engdahl/2008/0502.html --QUOTE-- "today's oil prices are really determined is done by a process so opaque only a handful of major oil trading banks such as Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley have any idea who is buying and who selling oil futures or derivative contracts that set physical oil prices in this strange new world of "paper oil." " BTW the amount of capital the above top 4 hedge funds have is on the order of EIGHT years of the USA 's economic output. Yes, EIGHT. Interestingly the same companies that own these hedge funds, are the same top corporate contributors to O-bomb-uh and McSame. Just look at Obama's top 10 list - in there are Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, JP Morgan Chase. He ain't gonna turn his back on them: http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638 Now look at McSame: http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00006424 Same four hedge fund companies. To help you understand the hedge funds and the rest of the financial cartel, read this book. It was a REAL eye opener for me (I used to think the gold standard was a panacea, for instance): http://webofdebt.com Wonderful allusions to "The Wizard of Oz". It's a stunningly good book which goes into the lots of historical detail of money and money politics, fiat currencies and the gold standard, from 5,000 years ago, through Europe's middle ages, and the birth of the USA to the present, including the present subprime mortgage mess which has the economy teetering on a precipice, as well as the currency speculation attacks by the same Hedge Funds on the Asian "tigers" in the 90s (Thai Baht currency crisis), and the attacks on the Mexico and Brazil in the 70s and 80s. The central banks create money out of nothing (aka "fiat" money), and LOAN it to government, expecting to be repaid WITH interest(!). (this is called "debt based fiat currency") This is done via "monetizing the debt" by the Fed. The commercial banks do the same to consumers and corporations via "Fractional reserve banking". This system was invented several hundred years ago in Europe , and was one of the causes of the American Revolution. This system is the reason for the spiralling unpayable debt of the federal government today. The financial corporations that got rich off of this back then are still alive and well today. The ramifications of this system (debt based fiat currency) are well explained in the book. This begs the question: Why doesn't government create its own money for its own expenses (called "non-debt based fiat currency"), instead of giving the power to create money to a private corporation (i.e. the Federal Reserve), which collects interest on it? Several alternate fiat systems and asset backed currencies, and banking models, and attempts at such, are discussed in the book. Caution: if you're like me, a voracious reader, you can't put this book down. ________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Miatapower mailing list [email protected] http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower _______________________________________________ Miatapower mailing list [email protected] http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
