The money the government pays the Fed goes to pay the Feds expenses. The leftover goes back to the Treasury.
If you want to find out about the Fed and monetary systems, go here: http://www.federalreserve.gov/ -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Wilson Sent: Friday, 27 June, 2008 13:34 To: 'Tony Cooper'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [email protected] Subject: RE: NPC: NMC: Oil futures bidded up by the Hedge Funds. And aboutthemonetary system... Thanks Jason and Tony (my filter also put it into spam -arrgh). I see now the mathematical dilemma that you're talking about. Let me ask a simple question out of pure ignorance: What happens to the money that the gov't pays the fed in debt service? If that doesn't go back into service (open market) isn't that then a check against inflation? Jim -----Original Message----- From: Tony Cooper [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 1:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Jim Wilson; [email protected] Subject: Re: NPC: NMC: Oil futures bidded up by the Hedge Funds. And about themonetary system... Ron Paul has it right in that he wants the US to return to a currency backed by something of value (gold standard, etc). Inflation is nothing more then a government tax. Printing $$ to cover out of control spending devalues the currency and raises prices of everything. Instead of wiping out bad decisions, the Fed's radical policy of slashing rates and printing more dollars has only redistributed the losses to the most innocent bystanders - namely, the savers and dollar-earners. The Fed has injected a combined $207 billion in bailout cash so far. With more on the docket. It hasn't helped. The big banks keep on revealing even bigger losses. Many are close to failure. I fear an economic meltdown is coming... I urge you all to get your finances in order... 1) Get out of debt. 2) Save 6 months cash reserve 3) buy junk silver as insurance against massive inflation (pre -1964 silver coins). This will give you something of value in case the dollar tanks. 4) Invest in commodities now, they will hold and even go up in value against the sinking dollar. 5) Have personal protection - crime will be on the up swing as people get hungry. Tony Jason C wrote: I just saw this reply in my spam box ... *&^%$# POS Yahoo spam filter. Jim, All of your comments are addressed very well in the book. The argument of getting a private corporation / central bank like the Fed to create money to loan to government, instead of the government issuing its own money and owing it to noone, in order to "control" gov't spending, ignores the fact that gov't is effectively issued a blank check by the Fed anyway; both methods are inflationary, if more money is issued than that which covers economic growth. (Important concept - inflation is caused by an increase in the money supply that is greater than the increase in the sum total economic output. The past 4 years the Fed has expanded the money supply at unprecedented rates) Don't get me wrong, gov't spends waaaaaaay too much, however, realize that over HALF of what we pay in Federal income taxes, goes to servicing the INTEREST alone on the gov't's debt to the Fed, which created the money out of nothing. The most pernicious thing about our DEBT-BASED fiat currency system, is that: ALL NEW MONEY that is created is a DEBT; the money newly created does NOT include that to cover the INTEREST payments. The interest payments will have to come from SOMEONE ELSE taking out a loan. This is a mathematical paradox, which guarantees that the only way for the system to keep going is EVER INCREASING DEBT. The net effect of this is that ALL MONEY in circulation is gradually replaced by DEBT. This explains the perpetually rising debt. At the rate we are going, by 2012 or so, we will need to be taxed at 65% JUST to pay INTEREST on the Federal debt... mostly on money printed by the Fed. It is NO COINCIDENCE that the Income Tax was passed THE SAME YEAR as the Federal Reserve Act (1913) - it is part of its design. A debt based fiat currency system, is an INHERENTLY UNSTABLE SYSTEM, leading to BOOM AND BUST CYCLES. Boom and bust economic cycles are NOT natural, they are simply a result of having a debt based fiat currency system. Note how Guernsey and China have not had busts. The above paradox is called "the impossible contract" by the book's author. It is described but not named, in the following 45 minute cartoon slideshow: http://www.moneyasdebt.net/ and in the following allegorical story: http://www.relfe.com/plus_5_.html A blogger started calling it "The Compound Interest Paradox", and describes it in a 7 part post: http://fskrealityguide.blogspot.com/2008/06/compound-interest-paradox-re visi ted.html ---------------- re: China's yuan being "overvalued"... it is a nation's sovereign right to choose what their exchange rate should be. This is not to be confused with the desire "free market" ... BTW China is NOT communist anymore - they have way more capitalistic tendencies than, say, India. I base this on conversations with guys who have done business in both countries. Letting a currency "float", allows it to be attacked by the Hedge Funds (yes, the same guys who bidded up oil futures), which have been part of several concerted efforts to wage "economic war" on currencies. Among their victims are Thailand, Indonesia, Mexico, Argentina, Brazil, and so on. Here is a chapter describing it, from the Web of Debt book: "The Tequila Trap" http://www.webofdebt.com/excerpts/chapter-22.php Cheers, Jason --- On Mon, 6/23/08, Jim Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: From: Jim Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: NPC: NMC: Oil futures bidded up by the Hedge Funds. And about themonetary system... To: "'Jason C'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> , "'Tony Cooper'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: [email protected] Date: Monday, June 23, 2008, 2:04 PM Jason, Thanks for the links, I'll check them out. I'm anything but an economics guy, and I understand why you are against the gov't paying interest on it's own money, but it seems to me that that acts as a 2nd natural check against the government devaluing it's own currency when it puts more money into circulation. I know nothing of Guernsey , except that I just found it is 31 sq. miles, and has no defense budget -so it may not be a good example for a large government; it also a 45 million pound, and growing, fiscal "black hole". (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernsey ) With regard to China, economists the world over have been complaining that the yuan is artificially propped up to avoid inflation and keep China's competitive advantage of low cost production and bring foreign currency - like the USD - into the country. Now, with the shrinking of the globe enabling their own economic engine to run hotter, their currency will increase in value, and that "artificial" holding should be required less, but in any case, I fail to see where it can't be honestly argued that the currency in the communist state is subject to the same economic forces that drive most currencies. The reason I likened it to a perpetual motion machine is that it seems to me that the natural tendency for governments, like people, is to spend more and more and when you run out you get more to spend by borrowing or, in this case, printing more. Since either of these devalues the money, left unchecked, it's a runaway train. Finally, don't misunderstand that I like the idea of the government paying interest to the Federal Reserve but I also partially disagree with your statement that "This [interest] explains the spiraling Federal debt". I agree that the interest is a large part of it, but like my analogy of the everyday consumer, the government's real problem is that it spent, and continues to spend, more than it can afford, and now it owes it's life to the "credit card company" - the Federal Reserve. Jim ________________________________ From: Jason C [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 4:14 PM To: Jim Wilson; 'Tony Cooper' Cc: [email protected] Subject: RE: NPC: NMC: Oil futures bidded up by the Hedge Funds. And about themonetary system... LOL not quite. I don't have time at the moment to type a more detailed response, but you can read parts of the book here: http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=ILMGrEC524UC&dq=%22web+of+debt%22 &pri ntsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=xDrvE4l5UI&sig=gqGEIbh2IwrRNd4EGgtYSTDAP VU&s a=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result and here: http://webofdebt.com (click the free chapters on the right upper side of the page) The book is extensively referenced, and I tried checking out some of the references... Apparently the governments of the island nation of Guernsey, and China , are both issuing their own currency, and thus does not need to go into debt. Guernsey and China 's governments, do NOT have a public debt. Guernsey has been doing this for centuries now. They have a flat 20% income tax, no inheritance tax, no capital gains tax... Passing on the power of "seignorage" (gov't creating its own money), to a privately owned central bank such as the Federal Reserve, which then charges interest on it, seems particularly odious to me. This explains the spiraling Federal debt. At the rate we're going, taxes will have to go to 65% JUST to pay the INTEREST ALONE on this debt, interest on money created out of thin air. Jim Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Now were back to "perpetual motion" - it works just as well with currency as it does machinery. ________________________________ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tony Cooper Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 3:00 PM To: Jason C Cc: [email protected] Subject: Re: NPC: NMC: Oil futures bidded up by the Hedge Funds. And about themonetary system... "This begs the question: Why doesn't government create its own money for its own expenses (called "non-debt based fiat currency"), instead of giving the power to create money to a private corporation (i.e. the Federal Reserve), which collects interest on it?" IIRC my history correctly... Napoleon tried to do just that.... Jason C wrote: No comments on the links I sent, eh? Jason C <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Please, enough partisan talk - the Republicrats are bowling on the same team, and they're creaming us, on the other team. I agree with the petition. However, the MAIN reason oil prices are going up is the HEDGE FUNDS run by Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, JP Morgan Chase. Why are they doing it? http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/engdahl/2008/0502.html --QUOTE-- "today's oil prices are really determined is done by a process so opaque only a handful of major oil trading banks such as Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley have any idea who is buying and who selling oil futures or derivative contracts that set physical oil prices in this strange new world of "paper oil." " BTW the amount of capital the above top 4 hedge funds have is on the order of EIGHT years of the USA 's economic output. Yes, EIGHT. Interestingly the same companies that own these hedge funds, are the same top corporate contributors to O-bomb-uh and McSame. Just look at Obama's top 10 list - in there are Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, Citigroup, JP Morgan Chase. He ain't gonna turn his back on them: http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638 Now look at McSame: http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00006424 Same four hedge fund companies. To help you understand the hedge funds and the rest of the financial cartel, read this book. It was a REAL eye opener for me (I used to think the gold standard was a panacea, for instance): http://webofdebt.com <http://webofdebt.com> Wonderful allusions to "The Wizard of Oz". It's a stunningly good book which goes into the lots of historical detail of money and money politics, fiat currencies and the gold standard, from 5,000 years ago, through Europe's middle ages, and the birth of the USA to the present, including the present subprime mortgage mess which has the economy teetering on a precipice, as well as the currency speculation attacks by the same Hedge Funds on the Asian "tigers" in the 90s (Thai Baht currency crisis), and the attacks on the Mexico and Brazil in the 70s and 80s. The central banks create money out of nothing (aka "fiat" money), and LOAN it to government, expecting to be repaid WITH interest(!). (this is called "debt based fiat currency") This is done via "monetizing the debt" by the Fed. The commercial banks do the same to consumers and corporations via "Fractional reserve banking". This system was invented several hundred years ago in Europe , and was one of the causes of the American Revolution. This system is the reason for the spiralling unpayable debt of the federal government today. The financial corporations that got rich off of this back then are still alive and well today. The ramifications of this system (debt based fiat currency) are well explained in the book. This begs the question: Why doesn't government create its own money for its own expenses (called "non-debt based fiat currency"), instead of giving the power to create money to a private corporation (i.e. the Federal Reserve), which collects interest on it? Several alternate fiat systems and asset backed currencies, and banking models, and attempts at such, are discussed in the book. Caution: if you're like me, a voracious reader, you can't put this book down. ________________________________ _______________________________________________ Miatapower mailing list [email protected] http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower _______________________________________________ Miatapower mailing list [email protected] http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower _______________________________________________ Miatapower mailing list [email protected] http://list.miatapower.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/miatapower
