Thanks for the clarification, Nando
Your reference to cost is timely. None of the systems I have worked on over the last 20 years or so, have been cost-effective in the strict sense of the word. However in the context of security of supply, low environmental impact, low level of user interaction, low noise pollution, reduced need for a large stationary power plant, etc. the projects have mostly been quite successful. The system referenced in my earlier messages will probably never output over 500 watts after/if everything is optimized, but at 24h/day during the winter months, will still provide a surplus of power to be used as domestic hot water. A system design has to iteratively include the entire input/output system. It would interesting to see more work being down on embedded power/load management software that not only constantly fine-tunes the generating side but the load side as well - ie. as pond levels drop, non-critical loads are progressively disconnected. Not in response to dropping power output, but predictively, to avoid larger/more critical shutdowns in the near future. Rob Quoting Nando <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Rob: > Sorry, I was not trying to place you between Hugh and me, I stated the not > shouting to make sure that nobody starts to say tat I am shouting when I > write two words in capital letters. > Though I felt that he may give a negative response to your message and so > said it. > > Costs of smaller systems do have a lot of variables and many additional > compromises if compared to a much larger generating power systems, from too > expensive ( KW per $) or too many civil works compromises or implementations > that as well increase the cost of the KW per $. > > Like a 1500 meters (4900 feet) pipe to generate just 1500 watts and the > first 1000 meters about 40 meters head and the rest 500 meters about 100 > meters head -- so about 2 l/sc. > > Regards > > Nando > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[email protected]>; "Nando" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 2:13 PM > Subject: Re: [microhydro] AC vs. DC microhydro > > > > Hi Nando, > > > > Please don't get me stuck between Hugh and yourself! You have both been > > invaluable resources to me over the years in my various microhydro > endeavours. > > My last two messages were simply to confirm the utility of 1C-2C in > certain > > situations. The setup I was referencing is running with a "instant" > temporary > > dam (lumber, tarps and sandbags)for testing purposes, so I had no precise > > design control of the generator capacitance/pulley ratios, hence the need > for > > MPPT. > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > Quoting Nando <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob: > > > > > > > > > > > > You just confirmed what I said to Hugh about testing the hydro power by > > > > > > placing a resistor in series, you "REPLACED" it with a MX60 MPPT( and I > am > > > > > > not Shouting) controller. > > > > > > Of course there are other types of charges one may use with the same > > > > > > results. > > > > > > > > > > > > I wonder how Hugh is going to Negatively respond to your message > > > > > > > > > > > > Nando > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > From: "Rob Linschoten" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > > > Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 10:40 PM > > > > > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] AC vs. DC microhydro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am running a small (300W) crossflow turbine using a 1 hp 240V 3 > phase > > > > > > Hyundai TEFC motor wired 1C-2C (about 800 feet from the battery, then > > > > > > stepped down to 60VDC via a toroid transformer, rectifier assembly and > about > > > > > > 24,000MF of capacitance) and into an Outback MX60 MPPT controller to > charge > > > > > > a 48VDC bank. Works like a charm. The MX60 finds the sweet spot for the > > > > > > turbine at any given head/load. I have a diverter on the 240VAC side set > to > > > > > > 260VAC in case the MX60 "lets go" during the float cycle. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: Nando > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 12:39 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] AC vs. DC microhydro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HUGH: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not upset at all, and NOTHING has gone up my nose, just wanted to > > > > > > > clarify what has been done by many. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Many times the efficiency may be allowed to go somewhat lower to > attain > > > > > > > certain system or capabilities. > > > > > > > As you have done with wind mills, that as well may need load and level > > > > > > > controllers. > > > > > > > Hydros Turbine may need level controllers to maintain a precise output > > > > > > > voltage/power limitations as needed by the overall system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have not been successful then say it but indicate where you > have > > > > > > not > > > > > > > been able to fulfill the expected parameters of the system. ( same for > > > > > > wind > > > > > > > mills and Hydros ). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For small Turbine Hydro Electric Systems > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Induction motors as generators and transformer/rectifier systems NEED > to > > > > > > > have the proper load impedance that has to be not like a "ZENER" load > ( > > > > > > > Clamped Load) but like one with a variable load impedance to allow the > > > > > > > motor/generator to retain the power product given by the turbine -- > > > > > > which > > > > > > > means DO NOT overload the system or power clamp the output --.The > > > > > > > transformer/rectifier loading needs to be adjustable like Xantrex C40 > > > > > > > charger. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just to prove yourself : Setup the hydro with a transformer/rectifier > > > > > > with a > > > > > > > small resistor in series between the battery and the charger, this > > > > > > resistor > > > > > > > needs to set the maximum power drawn by the transformer/rectifier into > > > > > > the > > > > > > > battery and resistor = Current^2 * Resistor + Bat_voltage*Current. > > > > > > > Just a test -- so The CKT should have the capability to regulate the > > > > > > current > > > > > > > within the limitations of the system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Small systems, many times, DO need to have a load with MPPT > > > > > > capabilities > > > > > > > either DC or AC generated power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nando > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > > From: "Hugh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 12:28 PM > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [microhydro] AC vs. DC microhydro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 3:32 PM -0600 12/2/05, Nando wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>Just because you have tried 3 times with induction motors and failed > > > > > > to > > > > > > > >>get > > > > > > > >>the proper results you are FOUL MOUTHING the Hundreds or even > several > > > > > > > >>thousands small hydro systems using induction motors as generators. > > > > > > Low > > > > > > > >>cost, Long Lasting, Easy to implement, Easy to control and maintain. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am sorry, I had no intention of being foul in any way. I intended > > > > > > > > to be helpful. If you know of a successful example using an > > > > > > > > induction generator and a transformer/rectifier, please could you > > > > > > > > tell me the efficiency? and suggest where I may have gone wrong? My > > > > > > > > turbines were not stalling, and I experimented plenty with the > > > > > > > > excitation but could never get any of them producing more than half > > > > > > > > what they should. This is also typical of other systems of this sort > > > > > > > > that I have heard of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have had great success using induction motors (with controlled AC > > > > > > > > output) feeding synchronising sine wave inverters, but then I have > > > > > > > > the extra cost of the controller. I have had great success with high > > > > > > > > voltage permanent magnet machines and transformers. Hydro power is > > > > > > > > very easy compared to windpower. But induction motors and > > > > > > > > transformer/rectifier battery chargers are not so easy at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A heavy cable is often cheaper and more efficient than a > transformer, > > > > > > > > so I thought I ought to mention that fact. I also mentioned that he > > > > > > > > could use either a stream engine or a multi-jet pelton on that site > > > > > > > > and either would work well. Everything I said seems to have got > > > > > > > > right up your nose. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I seem to have upset you, Nando and for that I am most sorry. If I > > > > > > > > have upset anyone else then I am sorry for that too. I only tried to > > > > > > > > be helpful by relating my own experiences, but in future I will > > > > > > > > probably not risk it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > best wishes, and bye bye. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Hugh > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does your company feature in the microhydro business directory at > > > > > > > > http://microhydropower.net/directory ? If not, please register free > of > > > > > > > > charge and be exposed to the microhydro community world wide! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NOTE: The advertisements in this email are added by Yahoogroups who > > > > > > > > provides us with free email group services. 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