keady - for Mike Baiada
Here's my experience Monday afternoon
1. Had 1955 schedule SFO-LAX
2. We pushed on time
3. Taxiing out, the Captain said flow control to LAX meant we had to wait 25
minutes. We shut down one engine and just waited
4. Now, LAX normally has two arrival runways
5. Assuming about 37 landings per hour per runway is the limit (Jim Loos?)
6. That means the evening rush at LAX maxxes out at about 37 x 2 or 74 landings
per hour
7. So, tell specifically how the above situation could be improved
On Thursday, June 26, 2025 at 10:42:32 AM PDT, Kathryn Creedy via Mifnet
<mifnet@lists.mifnet.com> wrote:
Bob, laudable goals, especially considering this is only political theatre on
the administration's part. You have long recognized Congress is part of the
problem, not the solution.
Michael, are you questioning that ATC does not have a safety problem? The
entire aviation ecosystem, training, ATC and on and on has major safety
problems which cannot be solved by government fiat or theatre.
I'd like to see the specifics of the costs to private aviation at NavCanada vs
the FAA, which were alluded to in this article.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2025/06/26/why-the-us-should-copy-canada-to-fix-its-broken-air-traffic-control-system/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=dailydozen&cdlcid=5e33380026f096d31d26a600
So, if costs rose for private aviation, what were the corresponding operational
benefits that mitigated those costs?
Private aviation is afraid of airline dominance which would be diff for Canada
than the US. I'm afraid of airline dominance too because it has such a negative
impact on the consumer. But how does it play out elsewhere?
Cheers -- Kathryn
On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 1:05 PM R. Michael Baiada via Mifnet
<mifnet@lists.mifnet.com> wrote:
Bob,
While I was not asking you directly, I appreciate the response.
- Increase safety by separating ATC safety regulation (FAA) from ATC service
provision (Air Traffic Organization). Self-regulation is a conflict of
interest; ICAO called for this kind of organizational separation in 2001 and
most countries have done this.
While it may be a conflict of interest, how does privatization directly
“Increase safety by separating ATC safety regulation (FAA) from ATC service
provision (Air Traffic Organization)” and by how much (e.g. 10%, 20%, etc.).
- Properly finance and rebuild a capital-investment-starved system with
ancient technology and aging, sometimes-decrepit facilities.
While I agree, does anyone have a breakdown of the age of the US ATC systems,
system by system? Exactly which are “decrepit”? Many systems have been replaced
in the last 20 years (ERAM, STARS, etc.). Exactly which systems need to be
replaced first, and in what order and timetable?
- Restore professional staffing, such as systems engineers, to free the Air
Traffic Organization from dependence on aerospace contractors.
I agree.
- Increase productivity, as Nav Canada has done.
Productivity of what, and by how much? How is Nav Canada’s productivity
measured and how is higher than FAA’s?
I believe that a new ATC system needs much more specific goals. FAA has been
told to work harder, do better and spend more for decades, without success. In
what way does Privatization change this?
Before we conclude that Privatization is better for FAA, we need many more
answers.
Thanks,
Michael
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
R. Michael Baiada
ATH Group, Inc.
cell - (303) 521-6047
rmbai...@greenlandings.net
www.GreenLandings.net
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
The information contained in this email (including attachments) is covered by
the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. 2510-252 and is
confidential and proprietary and should be treated as such. The information
contained herein may contain ATH Group, Inc. Privileged/Proprietary Information
and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is
addressed. If you are not the intended recipient, or the employee or agent
responsible to deliver it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified
that any use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is
strictly prohibited. If you received this transmission in error, please
immediately notify the sender by email or telephone, and destroy the original
message and any copies thereof in whatever medium stored. Information
contained in this message that does not relate to the business of ATH Group,
Inc. is neither endorsed by nor attributable to ATH Group, Inc. Thank you.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: bob.poole--- via Mifnet <mifnet@lists.mifnet.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2025 09:15
To: mifnet@lists.mifnet.com
Cc: bob.po...@reason.org
Subject: [Mifnet 🛰 72843] Re: Here's my ATC story
My goals for ATC “corporatization” in one form or another are to:
- Increase safety by separating ATC safety regulation (FAA) from ATC service
provision (Air Traffic Organization). Self-regulation is a conflict of
interest; ICAO called for this kind of organizational separation in 2001 and
most countries have done this.
- Properly finance and rebuild a capital-investment-starved system with
ancient technology and aging, sometimes-decrepit facilities.
- Restore professional staffing, such as systems engineers, to free the Air
Traffic Organization from dependence on aerospace contractors.
- Increase productivity, as Nav Canada has done.
Those goals are absent in the “brand new air traffic system” proposal, which
would subsidize a poorly performing status quo. Nav Canada demonstrates all
four of these improvements, as the Forbes article explains.
Bob Poole
From: ATHGroup--- via Mifnet <mifnet@lists.mifnet.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2025 11:25 AM
To: mifnet@lists.mifnet.com
Cc: athgr...@baiada.com
Subject: [Mifnet 🛰 72841] Re: Here's my ATC story
Before the US embarks on ATC Privatization, we should build a detailed plan and
identify the program goals, which I have yet to see. So far, all I hear about
is throwing more money at FAA to buy new equipment.
If ATC Privatization is meant to lower FAA’s costs, this is an admirable goal,
but what is the target reduction and how is planned to be achieved?
If ATC Privatization is meant to increase ATC efficiency, by how much and what
does increasing ATC efficiency mean?
If ATC Privatization is meant to reduce airline delays, it will never happen
since ATC is not the root cause of airline delays.
Does Nav Canada, NATS or Eurocontrol have less delays than the US (at airports
with comparable traffic density)? In my 40 years of flying, I did not notice
any appreciably difference in the ATC function or service anywhere in the world.
Finally, as long as the airlines sit on the sidelines as cheerleaders instead
of participants/leaders, while refusing to define how they want to fly their
aircraft, little will change.
Michael
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
R. Michael Baiada
cell - (303) 521-6047
rmbai...@greenlandings.net
From: bob.poole--- via Mifnet <mifnet@lists.mifnet.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2025 08:01
To: mifnet@lists.mifnet.com
Cc: bob.po...@reason.org
Subject: [Mifnet 🛰 72840] FW: Here's my ATC story
Here is an article on ATC reform just out from Forbes:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2025/06/26/why-the-us-should-copy-canada-to-fix-its-broken-air-traffic-control-system/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revised: 20250507
You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list.
The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't exactly
cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the effort, please
know that it would be greatly appreciated:
https://wardell.us/url/mifbit
All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies:
1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a privilege--not a
right.
2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the author.
3) The tone of discussions is collegial.
4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste.
5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of other
Mifnet members.
* The Mifnet WEB SITE is:
https://www.mifnet.com/
* To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit:
https://lists.mifnet.com/
OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=leave
* Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to:
mifnet@lists.mifnet.com
* You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at:
mifnet-ow...@lists.mifnet.com
* Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates all list
traffic into 1-3
messages daily. See instructions at:
https://lists.mifnet.com/
* Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at:
https://lists.mifnet.com/
* For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via email:
mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=help
* View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at:
https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies
* View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at:
https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems
* View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at:
https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/mifnet@lists.mifnet.com/
--
Kathryn Creedy
PHONE # 321 405 4395US-Eastern Time ZoneTwitter: @kcreedyVisit me on LinkedIn
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revised: 20250507
You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list.
The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't exactly
cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the effort, please
know that it would be greatly appreciated:
https://wardell.us/url/mifbit
All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies:
1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a privilege--not a
right.
2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the author.
3) The tone of discussions is collegial.
4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste.
5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of other
Mifnet members.
* The Mifnet WEB SITE is:
https://www.mifnet.com/
* To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit:
https://lists.mifnet.com/
OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=leave
* Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to:
mifnet@lists.mifnet.com
* You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at:
mifnet-ow...@lists.mifnet.com
* Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates all list
traffic into 1-3
messages daily. See instructions at:
https://lists.mifnet.com/
* Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at:
https://lists.mifnet.com/
* For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via email:
mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=help
* View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at:
https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies
* View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at:
https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems
* View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at:
https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/mifnet@lists.mifnet.com/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revised: 20250507
You are receiving The Mifnet because you requested to join this list.
The Mifnet is largely a labor of love, however the infrastructure isn't exactly
cost-free. If you'd care to make a small contribution to the effort, please
know that it would be greatly appreciated:
https://wardell.us/url/mifbit
All posts sent to the list should abide by these policies:
1) List members acknowledge that participation in Mifnet is a privilege--not a
right.
2) Posts are always off the record, absent specific permission from the author.
3) The tone of discussions is collegial.
4) Posts are expected to be in reasonably good taste.
5) We discuss ideas and not personalities, and we don't speak ill of other
Mifnet members.
* The Mifnet WEB SITE is:
https://www.mifnet.com/
* To UNSUBSCRIBE from this list at any time please visit:
https://lists.mifnet.com/
OR: SEND THIS MESSAGE via email: mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=leave
* Send Mifnet mailing list POSTS/SUBMISSIONS to:
mifnet@lists.mifnet.com
* You may reach the person managing The Mifnet at:
mifnet-ow...@lists.mifnet.com
* Please consider the DIGEST version of The Mifnet, which consolidates all list
traffic into 1-3
messages daily. See instructions at:
https://lists.mifnet.com/
* Manage your personal Mifnet SUBSCRIPTION at:
https://lists.mifnet.com/
* For a list of all available Mifnet commands, SEND THIS MESSAGE via email:
mifnet-requ...@lists.mifnet.com?subject=help
* View The Mifnet LIST POLICIES and PRIVACY POLICY at:
https://mifnet.com/index.php/policies
* View instructions for Mifnet DELIVERY PROBLEMS at:
https://mifnet.com/index.php/delivery-problems
* View The Mifnet LIST ARCHIVE at:
https://lists.mifnet.com/hyperkitty/list/mifnet@lists.mifnet.com/
