One can - pace Francis - find religious authority to support the above. Orn has often posted some of what would be the relevant discourse - I am not even slightly put off by some of his "religiosity" - and others have pointed towards economics as if people mattered. I do not believe we have to share incredulous beliefs to find peace.
On 23 Dec, 16:18, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > One might consider that now we have technology and the possibilty of > peaceful living in the land of plenty, why it is our real religion > (economics - no doubt as well understood by most as the Koran is by > illiterate Taliban) demands the manipulation of scarcity and consuming > progress towards re-desertification by burning the planet. > Sue has just reminded me that Zizek once asked what life might be like > if we could just talk as though power relations don't matter, in an > understanding such would not be used in the usual, nasty ways. One > might say that it is all too easy to see money as the root of all evil > - keys to decent lives might well be in replacing the system we have > to an enabling one that accepts deficiencies in human nature and > guards against them. We can't even ground the big bang as a point of > origin, let alone wanderings in deserts or the appearances of morning > stars. The elevation of biblical christ/s or whatever fantasies to > authority is a disaster, pushing evidence into faith we do not need. > I am sure Francis and I (over a beer in a coffee shop perhaps) might > well laugh over a conversation about our foibles and not being > perfect. "Father Ted and the Anarchist Policeman" perhaps! I would > hope we'd be more concerned about how we might do something about > chronic bureaucracy and why figures who have roamed the Earth trying > to promote good have so often failed (and even how some good has > prevailed) than over already failed arguments as to whether Christ was > real. That we need religion in the sense of a social contract as a > way of living is not in doubt for me. What is shameful is that we now > have a technology capable of bringing peace, yet harp on about myths > of divine origin that cannot help and are part of the problem. Some > of us have sought light at the bottom of many bottles and know it > ain't there either. Where is the sensible discourse on a genuine, > peaceful, peace loving life undertaken by the flawed actors we > currently are? > > On 23 Dec, 11:16, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > By the way, with regard to the methodology I proposed in my last > > paragraph, I would like to point out that there is an excellent > > Christian precedent for this. I refer to Paul's speech at the > > Areopagus in Athens, as reported in Acts 17: 19-34. > > > On 23 Dez., 11:58, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Ok, Aaron, my first response to your question was instinctive and > > > perhaps somewhat trite, so let's start again, shall we? We don't have > > > all that many Born Again Christians posting here, so I would be > > > interested in some genuine engagement with the goal of trying to > > > understand where you're coming from, in order to see whether any > > > meaningful dialogue is possible. > > > > In answer to your question - although I was baptised as an infant > > > (which, according to the teaching of all the mainstream Christian > > > churches, with the exception of some elements in the Baptist > > > tradition, is regarded as adhering to the admonition of Jesus in Mt. > > > 24:1 to baptise, a meditation on the meaning of which is provided in > > > Jn. 3, where he speaks of being born through water and the Spirit [Jn > > > 3:5]), I do not regard myself as having been Born Again in the sense > > > commonly used by so-called evangelical adherents of the Christian > > > belief. > > > > Having spent many years regarding myself as a Christian, the > > > difficulites and contradictions I saw with my professed Christian > > > belief led me to finally acknowledge the essential agnostic/atheistic > > > basis of my world view around eight years ago. It was - as you put it > > > - "all too difficult to believe"; I realised and admitted to myself > > > that I did not, in fact, believe it. I found (and still find) this > > > realisation to be personally liberating. > > > > One of the most positive aspects of this realisation was that it made > > > clear to me that I, personally, was responsible for myself and my > > > actions (or inactions) and that I could accept (and relish) my > > > fundamental freedom (even if this is often limited in practical > > > situations and by the neurotic baggage I've accumuated through my > > > life) as a human person. I regard it as a step in a process of > > > maturing; being able to live a generally fulfilled and fulfilling life > > > without having recourse to some kind of "higher power" to make sense > > > of things or sort things out for me. In many ways I would see it as a > > > kind of growing up and believe(!) that this sort of process would be > > > beneficial for the human race as a whole. > > > > What/who is this "Christ" who came looking for you and revealed > > > himself to you? Jesus of Nazareth, an somewhat unorthodox Jewish > > > teacher, who (as far as we can reliably tell historically) fell foul > > > of the religious authorities in his own tradition and was executed by > > > the Roman civil authorities as a nuisance to public order? Or some > > > kind of "annointed" [greek: Хῥιστόϛ] of God, or son of God, as he was > > > later regarded in a number of traditions which among those who had > > > heard him, or of him? Which tradition - the Jacobine, the Pauline, the > > > Johannine? In what sense do you claim that the words recorded in John > > > 3 (the dialogue with Nicodemus) were the actual words spoken by the > > > teacher, Jesus, (if they were, in fact,) spoken by him around seventy > > > years before the gospel of John was written? Even if the gospel > > > referred to was written by John, the disciple of Jesus referred to in > > > the synoptic gospels (something about which the majority of scholars > > > are sceptical [he would have had to be about 90years old at the time > > > of writing]), given the absence of modern recording devices (or even > > > general literacy), the accuracy of such intricately constructed > > > dialogues with regard to what was originally said is profoundly > > > questionable (particularly given the fact that they seem to have been > > > unkown to the earlier sources [Mark and "Q", which form the basis of > > > the synoptic gospels, which are, in turn, earlier than John]). > > > > Finally, I would ask what the advantages of being found by Christ and > > > being "born again" are? As a non-believer, I do not regard myself as > > > being in need of some kind of revelation, nor do I see myself as a bad > > > person in need of redemption. The examples I have encountered of self- > > > declared "born-again" Christians does not, in general, evoke any > > > feeling in me that they have got something worthwhile which I lack. > > > Indeed I find many of their attitudes, opinions and positions to be > > > facile, intolerant, badly thought out and just plain wrong. It would > > > be helpful if you could give such clarification using arguments and > > > terminology which are common to both of us, without argumentation > > > based on what you call scripture. I ask this because I regard > > > supporting reference to the Bible as being counter-productive, as > > > "born-again" believers tend to see such argumentation as absolutely > > > authoritative, because they perceive it as being of divine origin, > > > whereas I do not accept this basic premise, so the argumatation just > > > doesn't reach me. > > > > Francis > > > > On 21 Dez., 23:00, "Aaron Eel (Ehrin)" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Have you been Born Again, I mean? If Christ hadn't come looking for me > > > > and reveled Himself to me, I probably would have gone through my life > > > > as an atheist. It would have all been too difficult to believe.- Hide > > > > quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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