I thought I did find some answers at the bottom of the bottle the other night whence I rambled on with my roiling rant about putting stock into fabrications designed for a time and a people of ignorance, and perhaps it was, at the time, well suited. Considering the scientific and technological understanding in our time, it seems as irrelevant as the belief in santa claus. This topic is a bottomless pit without any light to shed and without resource other than blind faith in ancient writings.
On Dec 23, 10:18 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > One might consider that now we have technology and the possibilty of > peaceful living in the land of plenty, why it is our real religion > (economics - no doubt as well understood by most as the Koran is by > illiterate Taliban) demands the manipulation of scarcity and consuming > progress towards re-desertification by burning the planet. > Sue has just reminded me that Zizek once asked what life might be like > if we could just talk as though power relations don't matter, in an > understanding such would not be used in the usual, nasty ways. One > might say that it is all too easy to see money as the root of all evil > - keys to decent lives might well be in replacing the system we have > to an enabling one that accepts deficiencies in human nature and > guards against them. We can't even ground the big bang as a point of > origin, let alone wanderings in deserts or the appearances of morning > stars. The elevation of biblical christ/s or whatever fantasies to > authority is a disaster, pushing evidence into faith we do not need. > I am sure Francis and I (over a beer in a coffee shop perhaps) might > well laugh over a conversation about our foibles and not being > perfect. "Father Ted and the Anarchist Policeman" perhaps! I would > hope we'd be more concerned about how we might do something about > chronic bureaucracy and why figures who have roamed the Earth trying > to promote good have so often failed (and even how some good has > prevailed) than over already failed arguments as to whether Christ was > real. That we need religion in the sense of a social contract as a > way of living is not in doubt for me. What is shameful is that we now > have a technology capable of bringing peace, yet harp on about myths > of divine origin that cannot help and are part of the problem. Some > of us have sought light at the bottom of many bottles and know it > ain't there either. Where is the sensible discourse on a genuine, > peaceful, peace loving life undertaken by the flawed actors we > currently are? > > On 23 Dec, 11:16, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > By the way, with regard to the methodology I proposed in my last > > paragraph, I would like to point out that there is an excellent > > Christian precedent for this. I refer to Paul's speech at the > > Areopagus in Athens, as reported in Acts 17: 19-34. > > > On 23 Dez., 11:58, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Ok, Aaron, my first response to your question was instinctive and > > > perhaps somewhat trite, so let's start again, shall we? We don't have > > > all that many Born Again Christians posting here, so I would be > > > interested in some genuine engagement with the goal of trying to > > > understand where you're coming from, in order to see whether any > > > meaningful dialogue is possible. > > > > In answer to your question - although I was baptised as an infant > > > (which, according to the teaching of all the mainstream Christian > > > churches, with the exception of some elements in the Baptist > > > tradition, is regarded as adhering to the admonition of Jesus in Mt. > > > 24:1 to baptise, a meditation on the meaning of which is provided in > > > Jn. 3, where he speaks of being born through water and the Spirit [Jn > > > 3:5]), I do not regard myself as having been Born Again in the sense > > > commonly used by so-called evangelical adherents of the Christian > > > belief. > > > > Having spent many years regarding myself as a Christian, the > > > difficulites and contradictions I saw with my professed Christian > > > belief led me to finally acknowledge the essential agnostic/atheistic > > > basis of my world view around eight years ago. It was - as you put it > > > - "all too difficult to believe"; I realised and admitted to myself > > > that I did not, in fact, believe it. I found (and still find) this > > > realisation to be personally liberating. > > > > One of the most positive aspects of this realisation was that it made > > > clear to me that I, personally, was responsible for myself and my > > > actions (or inactions) and that I could accept (and relish) my > > > fundamental freedom (even if this is often limited in practical > > > situations and by the neurotic baggage I've accumuated through my > > > life) as a human person. I regard it as a step in a process of > > > maturing; being able to live a generally fulfilled and fulfilling life > > > without having recourse to some kind of "higher power" to make sense > > > of things or sort things out for me. In many ways I would see it as a > > > kind of growing up and believe(!) that this sort of process would be > > > beneficial for the human race as a whole. > > > > What/who is this "Christ" who came looking for you and revealed > > > himself to you? Jesus of Nazareth, an somewhat unorthodox Jewish > > > teacher, who (as far as we can reliably tell historically) fell foul > > > of the religious authorities in his own tradition and was executed by > > > the Roman civil authorities as a nuisance to public order? Or some > > > kind of "annointed" [greek: Хῥιστόϛ] of God, or son of God, as he was > > > later regarded in a number of traditions which among those who had > > > heard him, or of him? Which tradition - the Jacobine, the Pauline, the > > > Johannine? In what sense do you claim that the words recorded in John > > > 3 (the dialogue with Nicodemus) were the actual words spoken by the > > > teacher, Jesus, (if they were, in fact,) spoken by him around seventy > > > years before the gospel of John was written? Even if the gospel > > > referred to was written by John, the disciple of Jesus referred to in > > > the synoptic gospels (something about which the majority of scholars > > > are sceptical [he would have had to be about 90years old at the time > > > of writing]), given the absence of modern recording devices (or even > > > general literacy), the accuracy of such intricately constructed > > > dialogues with regard to what was originally said is profoundly > > > questionable (particularly given the fact that they seem to have been > > > unkown to the earlier sources [Mark and "Q", which form the basis of > > > the synoptic gospels, which are, in turn, earlier than John]). > > > > Finally, I would ask what the advantages of being found by Christ and > > > being "born again" are? As a non-believer, I do not regard myself as > > > being in need of some kind of revelation, nor do I see myself as a bad > > > person in need of redemption. The examples I have encountered of self- > > > declared "born-again" Christians does not, in general, evoke any > > > feeling in me that they have got something worthwhile which I lack. > > > Indeed I find many of their attitudes, opinions and positions to be > > > facile, intolerant, badly thought out and just plain wrong. It would > > > be helpful if you could give such clarification using arguments and > > > terminology which are common to both of us, without argumentation > > > based on what you call scripture. I ask this because I regard > > > supporting reference to the Bible as being counter-productive, as > > > "born-again" believers tend to see such argumentation as absolutely > > > authoritative, because they perceive it as being of divine origin, > > > whereas I do not accept this basic premise, so the argumatation just > > > doesn't reach me. > > > > Francis > > > > On 21 Dez., 23:00, "Aaron Eel (Ehrin)" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Have you been Born Again, I mean? If Christ hadn't come looking for me > > > > and reveled Himself to me, I probably would have gone through my life > > > > as an atheist. It would have all been too difficult to believe.- Hide > > > > quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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