By the way, with regard to the methodology I proposed in my last paragraph, I would like to point out that there is an excellent Christian precedent for this. I refer to Paul's speech at the Areopagus in Athens, as reported in Acts 17: 19-34.
On 23 Dez., 11:58, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > Ok, Aaron, my first response to your question was instinctive and > perhaps somewhat trite, so let's start again, shall we? We don't have > all that many Born Again Christians posting here, so I would be > interested in some genuine engagement with the goal of trying to > understand where you're coming from, in order to see whether any > meaningful dialogue is possible. > > In answer to your question - although I was baptised as an infant > (which, according to the teaching of all the mainstream Christian > churches, with the exception of some elements in the Baptist > tradition, is regarded as adhering to the admonition of Jesus in Mt. > 24:1 to baptise, a meditation on the meaning of which is provided in > Jn. 3, where he speaks of being born through water and the Spirit [Jn > 3:5]), I do not regard myself as having been Born Again in the sense > commonly used by so-called evangelical adherents of the Christian > belief. > > Having spent many years regarding myself as a Christian, the > difficulites and contradictions I saw with my professed Christian > belief led me to finally acknowledge the essential agnostic/atheistic > basis of my world view around eight years ago. It was - as you put it > - "all too difficult to believe"; I realised and admitted to myself > that I did not, in fact, believe it. I found (and still find) this > realisation to be personally liberating. > > One of the most positive aspects of this realisation was that it made > clear to me that I, personally, was responsible for myself and my > actions (or inactions) and that I could accept (and relish) my > fundamental freedom (even if this is often limited in practical > situations and by the neurotic baggage I've accumuated through my > life) as a human person. I regard it as a step in a process of > maturing; being able to live a generally fulfilled and fulfilling life > without having recourse to some kind of "higher power" to make sense > of things or sort things out for me. In many ways I would see it as a > kind of growing up and believe(!) that this sort of process would be > beneficial for the human race as a whole. > > What/who is this "Christ" who came looking for you and revealed > himself to you? Jesus of Nazareth, an somewhat unorthodox Jewish > teacher, who (as far as we can reliably tell historically) fell foul > of the religious authorities in his own tradition and was executed by > the Roman civil authorities as a nuisance to public order? Or some > kind of "annointed" [greek: Хῥιστόϛ] of God, or son of God, as he was > later regarded in a number of traditions which among those who had > heard him, or of him? Which tradition - the Jacobine, the Pauline, the > Johannine? In what sense do you claim that the words recorded in John > 3 (the dialogue with Nicodemus) were the actual words spoken by the > teacher, Jesus, (if they were, in fact,) spoken by him around seventy > years before the gospel of John was written? Even if the gospel > referred to was written by John, the disciple of Jesus referred to in > the synoptic gospels (something about which the majority of scholars > are sceptical [he would have had to be about 90years old at the time > of writing]), given the absence of modern recording devices (or even > general literacy), the accuracy of such intricately constructed > dialogues with regard to what was originally said is profoundly > questionable (particularly given the fact that they seem to have been > unkown to the earlier sources [Mark and "Q", which form the basis of > the synoptic gospels, which are, in turn, earlier than John]). > > Finally, I would ask what the advantages of being found by Christ and > being "born again" are? As a non-believer, I do not regard myself as > being in need of some kind of revelation, nor do I see myself as a bad > person in need of redemption. The examples I have encountered of self- > declared "born-again" Christians does not, in general, evoke any > feeling in me that they have got something worthwhile which I lack. > Indeed I find many of their attitudes, opinions and positions to be > facile, intolerant, badly thought out and just plain wrong. It would > be helpful if you could give such clarification using arguments and > terminology which are common to both of us, without argumentation > based on what you call scripture. I ask this because I regard > supporting reference to the Bible as being counter-productive, as > "born-again" believers tend to see such argumentation as absolutely > authoritative, because they perceive it as being of divine origin, > whereas I do not accept this basic premise, so the argumatation just > doesn't reach me. > > Francis > > On 21 Dez., 23:00, "Aaron Eel (Ehrin)" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Have you been Born Again, I mean? If Christ hadn't come looking for me > > and reveled Himself to me, I probably would have gone through my life > > as an atheist. It would have all been too difficult to believe. --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
