On Dec 30, 5:43 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
> I didn't make the sarcasm obvious enough Chaz. It does strike me that
> much that is merely evolution is lauded as human triumph. Our
> treatment of people generally stinks. We must have taught a shipload
> of no hopers between us - sending them off to sink and not liking one
> bit of it. We'll have done well with a few - but it's too few, with
> not much outside education linked up to what we might have done
> better.
Indeed mate, maybe eugenics based on mental merit is the only answer?
>
> On 30 Dec, 03:45, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Happy New Year!
>
> > On Dec 29, 8:15 pm, "Chris Jenkins" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Having a fuckload of babies certainly ups the chances, mate... ;)
>
> > > On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 8:53 PM, chazwin <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > On Dec 29, 4:45 am, "Chris Jenkins" <[email protected]>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > Survival of the fittest is indeed commonly misunderstood, most
> > > > > especially
> > > > > when it comes to humans. It's not survival of those most fit to
> > > > > survive.
> > > > > It's survival of those most likely to procreate, and so it has been
> > > > through
> > > > > out all of evolution.
>
> > > > Actually it is those who are able to produce successful offspring in
> > > > their given environment.
> > > > Procreation is not enough in itself.
>
> > > > > And so it is that those with nought else to do but rock the bedposts
> > > > > turn
> > > > > out children at three times the rate... ;)
>
> > > > > On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 11:30 PM, archytas <[email protected]>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > The phrase "survival of fittest" is widely misunderstood Many
> > > > > > wrongly
> > > > > > assume it means that evolution always increases the chances of a
> > > > > > species surviving. Evolution sometimes results in individuals or
> > > > > > populations becoming less fit and may occasionally even lead to
> > > > > > extinction.
>
> > > > > > There are several ways in which evolution can reduce the overall
> > > > > > fitness of individuals or of populations. For starters, natural
> > > > > > selection can take place at different levels - genes, individuals,
> > > > > > groups - and what promotes the survival of a gene does not
> > > > > > necessarily
> > > > > > increase the fitness of the individuals carrying it, or of groups of
> > > > > > these individuals.
>
> > > > > > For example, parasitic DNA elements, or transposons, can spread
> > > > > > through a population even though they make their host organisms less
> > > > > > fit. Transposons are one cause of genetic diseases such as
> > > > > > haemophilia.
>
> > > > > > Similarly, selfish individuals may thrive at the expense of
> > > > > > altruistic
> > > > > > individuals in a group - making them the "fittest" - even though
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > make the group as a whole less competitive. Such cheaters can have
> > > > > > disastrous consequences.
>
> > > > > > In 1932, J. B. S. Haldane suggested this could even lead to the
> > > > > > extinction of populations - a phenomenon called evolutionary
> > > > > > suicide.
> > > > > > Models and some experimental evidence suggest he was right.
>
> > > > > > For instance, when nutrients run low, individual myxobacteria (slime
> > > > > > bacteria) may come together to form a fruiting body to produce
> > > > > > spores.
> > > > > > Lab studies have shown that cheating myxobacteria that only produce
> > > > > > spores and never help form the non-spore producing parts of the
> > > > > > fruiting body can drive populations to extinction.
>
> > > > > > Genes capable of driving populations to extinction might have a
> > > > > > practical use, however. Biologists are exploring the possibility of
> > > > > > releasing engineered parasitic DNA into populations of malaria-
> > > > > > carrying mosquitoes.
>
> > > > > > There is concern that something similar could happen accidentally.
> > > > > > Fish that have been genetically modified to produce a growth hormone
> > > > > > grow faster and larger, mature earlier and produce more eggs. But
> > > > > > they
> > > > > > are less likely to survive in the wild than unmodified fish.
> > > > > > According
> > > > > > to the Trojan gene hypothesis, a gene variant that produces such
> > > > > > characteristics could spread rapidly through a wild population
> > > > > > despite
> > > > > > reducing individual fitness, and eventually drive the population to
> > > > > > extinction.
>
> > > > > > Another way in which evolution can reduce a species' chances of
> > > > > > survival is through the accumulation of detrimental mutations.
> > > > > > Mutations provide the vital raw material for natural selection, so
> > > > > > if
> > > > > > the mutation rate is too low a population will not be able to evolve
> > > > > > fast enough to keep up with environmental changes.
>
> > > > > > If, on the other hand, a population's mutation rate is too high,
> > > > > > detrimental mutations may accumulate faster than natural selection
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > eliminate them. Eventually, the number of mutations can exceed the
> > > > > > "error catastrophe threshold", again leading to the extinction of a
> > > > > > population.
>
> > > > > > In theory, any species with a very small population could accumulate
> > > > > > deleterious mutations faster than it can eliminate them. The problem
> > > > > > is especially severe for asexual organisms such as the Amazon molly
> > > > > > -
> > > > > > an effect known as Muller's rachet.
>
> > > > > > It is far less of a problem for sexually reproducing species because
> > > > > > the exchange of genetic material between chromosomes can separate
> > > > > > good
> > > > > > and bad mutations. Some unlucky offspring get saddled with lots of
> > > > > > nasty mutations and die out, while the lucky ones get hardly any.
>
> > > > > > In theory, a mutation catastrophe can also occur as a result of
> > > > > > linkage. This refers to gene variants that are inherited together
> > > > > > because they sit next to each other on a chromosome. Suppose a
> > > > > > mutation that greatly increases the mutation rate somehow ends up
> > > > > > next
> > > > > > to a new mutation that greatly increases fitness. The immediate
> > > > > > fitness benefits of the beneficial mutation will initially mask the
> > > > > > deleterious effects of the "mutator" mutation, meaning both
> > > > > > mutations
> > > > > > will rapidly sweep through a population, ultimately with disastrous
> > > > > > consequences.
>
> > > > > > A few doctors hope to exploit mutation accumulation to treat
> > > > > > diseases.
> > > > > > Certain viruses such as HIV are already close to the error
> > > > > > catastrophe
> > > > > > threshold. Drugs that increase the mutation rate of the viruses
> > > > > > still
> > > > > > further might push them over the threshold and drive a population of
> > > > > > viruses inside a person's body to extinction.
>
> > > > > > Finallly, it has long been recognised that the competition between
> > > > > > members of the same species to reproduce - sexual selection - can
> > > > > > favour traits that reduce a species' overall fitness. Male peacocks
> > > > > > with the biggest and brightest tails might get the females'
> > > > > > attention,
> > > > > > but lugging around a heavy, conspicuous tail reduces their chances
> > > > > > of
> > > > > > survival.
>
> > > > > > Studies of threatened bird species suggest that sexual selection can
> > > > > > indeed drive populations to extinction. Some biologists go so far as
> > > > > > to blame sexual selection for the conspicuous consumption that
> > > > > > threatens humanity's future.
>
> > > > > > According to the handicap principle, features such as peacocks'
> > > > > > tails
> > > > > > evolve precisely because they are disadvantageous. Consider an
> > > > > > individual who is trying to signal to females how fit and strong he
> > > > > > is. If the signal is easy to make, weaker males can easily cheat by
> > > > > > making the same signal. But if making the signal is costly - such as
> > > > > > growing a large, clumsy tail or giving away food - there's no way to
> > > > > > cheat.
>
> > > > > > Proving that any of these phenomena have ever led to extinctions in
> > > > > > the wild is far from easy, because any species to which this has
> > > > > > happened are, of course, no longer around to study. The indirect
> > > > > > evidence is growing ever stronger, though.
>
> > > > > > The above is from this week's New Scientist. I've come across
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > 20 misconceptions of evolution reading literature recently and, of
> > > > > > course, creationist myths are legion. My interest is indirect - I'm
> > > > > > looking for examples of why our debates are so little evidence based
> > > > > > for a theory of language.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
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