People generally operate on principles of myth. The original sin is teaching our children what we have never really understood as though we know which from witch. There is a madness we don't recognise amongst us and much more hostility than we dare reveal. I despair of this. I can join academic sects that claim to understand, but essentially life goes on in nasty, brutish ways.
On 14 Feb, 06:14, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > As with many myths, Original Sin deals with common human behavior and > the consequences of defiance. Perseus comes to mind. I like it. The > misogynistic side I can ignore easily. It's not so much Woman that is > to blame but Man's willingness to defy God. Adam wants to know what > that apple tastes like just as much as Eve does. You totally nail all > the aspects of the story. I see the same things you do. God isn't > fair. Neither is life. I see it more as a coming of age story with > the unknown responsibilities that come with adulthood being thrust on > naive children. I see the dangers of experimentation and defiance and > I see the rewards. Apples are tasty. > > Beats the heck outta what happened to Job. Now THAT's a cruel God. > > dj > > On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 9:58 AM, frantheman <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > On 13 Feb., 08:01, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Too much knowledge is a burden. We're all still paying for Eve's > >> sin(what a wonderful allegory original sin is). > > > I have to disagree with you here, Don. I don't like the concept of > > original sin, never did, even during the decade I spent as a member of > > the Dominican Order of the Catholic Church (much of that time spent > > studying theology). > > > While I have great respect for myths, and the manifold underlying > > truths contained in many of them, the Eden myth has many negative > > aspects. God creates humanity free, with curiosity and a thirst for > > knowledge and then arbitrarily, without explanation, places a > > "Verbot." In fact, the story has many parallels to the Pandora myth, > > which pans out basically the same way. There is no way a human can > > resist the challenge to taste the fruit (especially as it grows on the > > tree of the knowledge of good and evil) and remain (or be) human. The > > outcome is inevitable. The conclusion is to regard our freedom and > > thirst for knowledge as a basic flaw - yet it is integral to our > > nature. Thus original sin, our very nature leads to the destruction of > > the golden age. Yet the alternative is to be less than human - > > innocent lotus-eaters. No thanks. > > > Then, of course, there is the whole mysogenistic aspect. It is, of > > course, the irresponsibly curious woman who allows herself to be > > misled into tasting the fruit (the Pandora story follows the same > > plot). The only redeeming aspect of the Yahwist/Genesis story is the > > depiction of the typical male reaction, passing the buck onto everyone > > else available; "It was the woman you put with me; she gave me the > > fruit, and I ate it" (Gen 3:12). > > > All in all, the myth is the product of a settled, patriarchal, > > conservative world-view, giving a warning against independence, free- > > thinking, innovation and perfidious women. And that's even before Paul > > and Augustine got hold of the story and perverted it even farther, to > > the extent that Augustine even defined sexual pleasure (concupiscence) > > as the mechanism by which this "original" sin is passed on. With all > > the connotations of women continually tempting upright men to sin by > > means of their sexual allure. The end result, in another Abrahamic > > religion, leads through hajib to the burqa, among other things. > > > I can appreciate Justin's frustration. One might even describe it as a > > satorial hangover (and I'm not referring to his dress style :-))! We > > remain human, even after experiencing "spiritual(?)" states. This is > > especially true, in my experience, of monastic communities. Despite > > the (mostly) high ideals of their members, they are microcosms of life > > in general - indeed, particular conflicts and feelings are often > > reinforced by monastic structures. I suspect, Justin, that a possible > > answer to your present mood might be; breathe in, breathe out. > > > Francis > > >> I have experienced many of the social problems you mention. As you > >> say, most could be due to lack of communication but probably more > >> because they just don't feel like you do. Which makes you unique; > >> just like the rest of us. You are not alone. > > >> Dude, you think too much. > > >> Take a night sail if weather permits and if not; get a massage and > >> shut your cranium off for an hour. Your starting to sound like one of > >> those people in Hellraiser searching for........whatever. > > >> Stay away from Chinese puzzle boxes. > > >> dj > > >> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Justintruth <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > > >> > Hi Chris, > > >> > I guess ultimately what I mean by viable is "is true". I am concerned > >> > about some issues that have to due with questioning and answers and > >> > the effect of answers on questioning. Often "the alternative to > >> > fundamentalism" is expressed as an answer. I think that its not so > >> > simple. Why is it that one who experiences real enlightenment does not > >> > stay in that blessed state, or stay aware of it in the same way > >> > (because in fact we are always "in" it in a sense), even though the > >> > memory of it remains and determines ones world view? Yes I know that > >> > only recognition separates me from the truth... perhaps the answer is > >> > the foundation of ethics and what is needed most is courage. But > >> > intellectually I have trouble reconciling the notion of a truth that > >> > takes more than just knowing in a purely intellectual sense to > >> > realize. I have questions about the meaning of knowing in relation to > >> > these matters and more importantly I am afraid that I see that the > >> > process of asking and answering questions which is the foundation of > >> > philosophy itself, may be inadequate to the task. I am concerned that > >> > "Just In Truth" may be a distortion... that the "Just" is an unwelcome > >> > limitation or rather a limitation that prevents the "In Truth". > >> > Perhaps I need to change my name to "Hello" or something like that. > >> > The debates of Greece lack something. > > >> > I recently attempted to set up a kind of secular monastery. A place > >> > for Being. I had visions of those around me working together and being > >> > able to be alone when they felt the need to withdraw. Not a somber > >> > place but one full of art and culture. I envisioned beautiful private > >> > spaces where you could withdraw to be completely alone and public > >> > communal spaces that you could go to to be with those you love. Lots > >> > of gardens. I even bought a sizable piece of land to begin on. It was > >> > not a public thing. I wanted my friends to all be able to live > >> > together. What happened was the whole thing became a kind of clash of > >> > limitations. The finite aspects of everyone ... it was as if when > >> > confronted with each other we find we can't stand each other. Love is > >> > not transitive nor is it reflexive. Each wants to determine the other > >> > in order to determine his or her own self and their ideas conflict. I > >> > could not communicate well enough or maybe the whole thing was just my > >> > idea and not what others wanted. Why is it that we separate everyone > >> > into those with whom we wish to associate and those with whom we will > >> > refuse to have anything to do with? Why is this pecking order thing so > >> > big? Our finite beings can be either "pretty" or "pretty ugly" and > >> > when we get into a room there is such an arranging of everyone into > >> > those that are "in" and those that are "out". I have been so attracted > >> > lately to the ugly, old and infirm and so turned off by the beautiful > >> > lately. Where does that come from? God I sound like a whining > >> > teenager! Communal living can be successful but only certain forms > >> > have worked and even those, even in the monasteries there is trouble. > >> > Some day maybe we will understand better. I actually think that > >> > neurology may in the end help us understand although the path is so > >> > dangerous. > > >> > It seems that one of the things we do a lot of here is to "exchange > >> > opinions" - not just in this news group but in our whole culture. I > >> > wish I had a culture in which I could do more that that with people. > >> > We are all such porcupines but this pursuit of the truth in the > >> > philosophical sense ultimately needs to be.... augmented? is that the > >> > word? I read my own words and have a problem with them: "We have so > >> > little of the truth out now. How can you ask for less?" > > >> > The problem is that being and meaning and action and knowing all are > >> > beginning to loose their boundaries for me. I am tired of being > >> > Justintruth. I guess for me I see a kind of limitation to pure > >> > knowing. A lack of finitude and too much infinitude as Kierkegaard > >> > calls it. I bet I could find my form of despair in his book! > > >> > Oh well! As the Brits say... "Chin up!"... and as Galileo is reported > >> > to have said: "Yes!...but the world still whirls!" Form me the cure > >> > will almost certainly be agriculture. > > >> > Anyway...that's roughly what I meant by viability. > > >> > I am glad that you "... see no problem whatsoever with throwing out > >> > all fundamentalist interpretations with a healthy exhalation, and > >> > living (your) life completely free of them." It seems like the right > >> > thing to me. > > >> > Good Luck, > > >> > Justintruth > > >> > On Feb 11, 6:10 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Wow! > >> >> Nice to see you again, Justin. > > >> >> This is a particularly interesting point: > > >> >> "The real issue is not which fundamentalist interpretation is correct > >> >> but whether the alternative to them is viable." > > >> >> What do you mean by viable? I'm wondering, because I see no problem > >> >> whatsoever with throwing out all fundamentalist interpretations with a > >> >> healthy exhalation, and living my life completely free of them. This > >> >> seems > >> >> perfectly viable to me. > > >> >> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 4:53 PM, Justintruth > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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