The issues, as you keep pointing out, are really quite deep, Neil. To call others "barbarians" is, originally - and hasn't really changed other - an expression of "us and them", where "we" are the civilized ones, and "they" are uncouth because they don't do as we do (shaving, in the original sense of the word). I think a lot of this has to do with deep behavioural and cultural instincts, which, as you point out, are probably evolutionary in origin - things to do with status, group- identification, security, maybe even down to the level of certain underlying genetic imperatives.
Our blessing and curse is that we have developed (self-)consciousness and rationality, a bit like a new software still running on top of the old operating system. The challenge (and it is one which often requires a lot of courage and honesty) is to genuinely try to use our rational capabilities rationally and not as justifications for deeper, pre-rational instincts. Such a use would probably imply the recognition that "they" are often right, or that "they" do some things better than "we" do. I have a suspicion that if our conclusion is that "we" are always right, then our rationality must be failing some kind of plausability test. But it usually takes an awful lot of suffering and pain before people can even start to accept some of this. You surely know this - after all, you spent time in Northern Ireland! Francis On 23 Feb., 13:18, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > Animal societies with leaders are much easier to domesticate than > those without. I've given up caring much about whether I live or die > Slip - though I was surprised how much I cared last time someone tried > to hit me. All was well - he rather seemed to like the gutter I threw > him into. The old lady seemed rather glad to get her purse back and > the cops who came finally stopped her booting chummy in the balls with > hardly a word of admonishment. I feel the deep issue is whether we > feel we should take a grip on evolution and try to do something > better. > In this latter sense, I have tended to believe the dinosaurs didn't > know about immanent meteorites or climate change and that we do. We > also know, whatever the glories of violent intervention, that wars are > insane and generally led by the insane and that history comes out of > horse's arses. The issue for me is whether we want to do something > rational - the world otherwise has little to offer me so I have to > admit to a vested interest in rationality beyond the next beer, or a > peach vodka with Vam (I'd hold it down despite my loathing of the > stuff in view of my comradely attitude towards his splendid > compassion). This point has been made in several ways from Hegel to > AN Whitehead. > Many of our debates are stopped before they start because we are > already factional on the wrong lines. I don't care if someone > believes in god (for instance) - this only matters if they would kill > or enslave me (etc.) - because I don't believe someone else's beliefs > are much other than in need of protection as are mine. What we don't > do is establish the deeper roots of where we are coming from or really > want to go to. In short, we remain broadly medieval - and even those > alleging to rationality forget this is merely another form of power > easily usurped. Claims to rationality are often mere camouflage for > dissimulation and deceit _ I'd guess mostly so. It's centuries now > since Spinoza's argument that we need democratic, secular society for > freedom of religious expression. I cannot believe the grim over- > consumerism we have practised can help and it elides questions of > genocide that always follow chosen people mentalities. > > On 23 Feb, 11:08, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > The gain is always from the personal view, as you say "the ground 'we' > > gained". The draft really reduces military capability in the sense of > > skill and dedication, it's just bodies that don't really have any > > interest in service or heroism. I don't see that anyone has the right > > to force a ordinarily peaceful person to commandeer a weapon and kill > > people without the component of self defense. In time what seems to > > have been gained may revert back to the way it was, as has been > > demonstrated in history. At the time it all seems right and lives are > > lost but in retrospect one can see the waste. > > I think it is the rulers that need to come to grips with peace > > management and stop frivolous decision making that causes sacrifice. > > I would have much rather watch GW and Saddam in a pit fighting with a > > knife, mano e mano, to settle out their differences. GW yells "you > > tried to kill my daddy and now I'm going to kill you", then they go at > > it. All humor aside though, the reality remains, soldiers most often > > have no idea what they are doing on a battle field or the political > > reasoning behind it, they just serve to eradicate someone who has been > > deemed enemy. What ground have we really gained? Will Iraq be > > another VM? You may be right about the Saudi's, UAE, Turkey and the > > frenzied land grab that may ensue, upon the exist strategy. > > Yes, very interesting times! Times for which I await the outcome of > > with wetted anticipation. > > > On Feb 22, 9:07 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I saw the Body Worlds exhibit last week and it was fascinating(last > > > day was today). I always enjoy seeing art and science combined to > > > create something extraordinary although I'll never look at a rack of > > > BBQ ribs quite the same way again. > > > > The neo-con in me doesn't want to give up the ground we've gained(not > > > worth the blood and treasure surely, but still gained). I see > > > problems ahead and we need entrenched military posts in that region. > > > I don't trust Saudi Arabia or the UAE or Turkey to remain our > > > 'friends' when all hell breaks out. I'm afraid our enemies smell > > > blood with all the weakness we are showing and will take every > > > advantage. Isolationism in this day and age is simply not in our best > > > interest. Or the interests of the world I'd wager. > > > > I hope I'm wrong. But I don't think I am. I'm afraid we'll need all > > > of the President's prodigious charisma to get this country through the > > > coming hard times. He may very well reinstate the draft and compulsory > > > service. Democrats have been pushing for this for some time and now > > > they can pretty much get whatever they want. It would be one way to > > > remove young people from the domestic job pool and shore up a > > > stretched thin military force. The future is scary. > > > > We certainly live in interesting times. Ancient Chinese curse and all. > > > > dj > > > > On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Don, really, the abandonment may be a good thing, though as you say it > > > > might turn out to be the killing field. What I'm thinking is, let it > > > > happen and it will all settle out one way or another. The reason we > > > > are always concerned about it is because 'We' want it to turn out in > > > > our favor. We, the US, have had our own killing field here, > > > > historically, and so it just settled out the way it did. How many > > > > lives have been needlessly lost thanks to intervention? I think > > > > barbarianism spans multiple cultures and in a sense has permeated > > > > societies in cult oriented microcosms. We are not aware of the > > > > atrocities until they appear on the nightly news and then we are > > > > shocked and dismayed to think that this stuff still goes on. > > > > The exhibit sounds intriguing and I might consider a drive over from > > > > SA. My wife is always hinting that she wants us to go somewhere. It > > > > 's only a few hours off and I'm thinking about the great restaurants > > > > available there. It's something to consider and her birthday is on > > > > the 3rd but in all actuality I will first have to decipher her desire > > > > to witness a Genghis Khan exhibit. Maybe I can Khan her into it! > > > > > On Feb 22, 5:02 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> I get your point Arch. When I use the word 'barbarian' I generally > > > >> think of the Mongol variety rather then the Germanic variety. Not > > > >> that it matters much. Who am I to judge? I am eagerly awaiting the > > > >> Genghis Khan exhibit coming to HMNS at the end of the month. I plan > > > >> to learn something. > > > > >> dj > > > > >> On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 4:33 PM, archytas <[email protected]> > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > The 'barbarians' have just turned out generally to be more peaceful, > > > >> > cultured and so on the Roman (Church) history led us to believe Don. > > > >> > It's only that use I have a bit of a problem with. In Francis' sense > > > >> > the awful stuff sometimes seems everywhere. > > > > >> > On 22 Feb, 22:21, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> >> It does my heart good to hear Iran and N. Korea referred to as 'piss > > > >> >> ant.' I concur. It remains to be seen whether the 3rd former 'axis > > > >> >> of evil' country will remain liberated after we abandon them to > > > >> >> their > > > >> >> neighbors. This is one Obama promise I really hope he does break. > > > >> >> One can argue against the judgment of the original invasion and > > > >> >> certainly the way the war was conducted but abandonment now seems > > > >> >> unconscionable. It will be the killing fields all over again. Is > > > >> >> Obama really prepared to be responsible for such an atrocity? > > > >> >> With > > > >> >> his history of voting 'present' I think not. Obama has many > > > >> >> favorable > > > >> >> qualities but courage does not seem to be one of them. > > > > >> >> I confess to being a big fan of Dirty Harry. Magnum Force was a > > > >> >> thrill. I highly recommend Eastwood's newest crime drama "Gran > > > >> >> Torino." That said I would never dream of confronting 'punks' like > > > >> >> he does. I am not a police officer. I would only use my weapon to > > > >> >> defend life and for no other reason. Since I have moved to a much > > > >> >> nicer neighborhood there is little chance I will get my day > > > >> >> made.(knock on wood) > > > > >> >> dj > > > > >> >> On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 11:49 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> > > > >> >> wrote: > > > > >> >> > Don, I would strongly agree on the rapid and sometimes rabid > > > >> >> > dissemination of information point. Exposure has it's way of > > > >> >> > awakening those who think their atrocities are OK in their own > > > >> >> > private > > > >> >> > little minds. China seems to still be chopping heads off in the > > > >> >> > public square and issuing death penalties for corporate > > > >> >> > mismanagement, > > > >> >> > so I don't know that it is a universal concept. As you say the > > > >> >> > reduction of blatant offenses may be attributed to global > > > >> >> > exposure but > > > >> >> > the fact is some countries just don't really care. > > > >> >> > Concerning Pinker's historical splay of violence, he might as well > > > >> >> > added the stepping on of ants and insects as a demonstration of > > > >> >> > humanity's penchant for violent behavior. I don't see humanity's > > > >> >> > reduction of violence but rather see it as simply wearing a > > > >> >> > different > > > >> >> > costume, like the wolf in sheep's clothing. Predators, in > > > >> >> > recognition > > > >> >> > of the exposure risks, seek new ways to camouflage their devious > > ... > > Erfahren Sie mehr »- Zitierten Text ausblenden - > > - Zitierten Text anzeigen - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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