If there were some outside field of Good/Evil which translated into an innate quality in a newborn child, how do you posit that data would be stored?>>CJ
I guess it would be stored in the same way other innate qualities are stored and I would not consider it data. On Mar 22, 11:27 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > Indeed. In fact, this very line of conjecture serves more to illustrate our > worldviews and dialectical positions than it does to resolve any ancient > enigmas. In the end, perhaps that is the true point of the Mind's Eye. > > But I digress. > > Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I agree with this axiom, but > find it lacking as a principle to build on, only a warning against using that > one line of defense as an absolute. You'll note that in each response, I rely > on the evidence in favor of my position, and only question the lack of > evidence in yours,as opposed to using that as evidence for my own. > > The suicide of the principal in your example is very unfortunate, because it > prevents us from knowing the truth. In countless cases, the sad but > predictable pathologies are invariably textbook cases of linear progressions > of environmental stimulus causing psychological response. From the Menendez > brothers to John Wayne Gacy, the stories play out along distinctly plottable > tracks. > > If there were some outside field of Good/Evil which translated into an innate > quality in a newborn child, how do you posit that data would be stored? > > > > [ Attached Message ]From:Slip Disc <[email protected]>To:"\"Minds Eye\"" > <[email protected]>Date:Sun, 22 Mar 2009 04:00:40 -0700 > (PDT)Local:Sun, Mar 22 2009 6:00 amSubject:[Mind's Eye] Re: Does evil exist? > > Lack of exhibition does not substantiate the claim. Evil does not > imply that a newborn should immediately do a 360 headspin, hiss and > spit blood out at you. This in no way indicates that evil does not > exist within a person or that it may manifest at a later date and > time, especially if there is intent, such as may be the case with > little Tim Kretschmer and Thomas Sullivan Jr > (link).http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/11/nyregion/boy-kills-mother-and-himse... > There are numerous other examples of course and whether or not they > are attributed to evil is speculation without any means of > establishing factual evidence. > The argument of evil, or the evil argument, remains problematic in > that we can only deduce from a set premise only to reach a fallible > conclusion. We cannot prove or disprove the existence of evil but > only present assertions laden with ambiguity and perplexities and > there are no uniform opinions on the matter other than those of > segmented groups within society that deem evil existence as a > necessity to their function. Maybe we can simply eradicate evil > entirely by ruling out its existence through euphemistic tactic and > rid ourselves of it for good and the world can live in peace, and find > closure, of course. lol :-) > > On Mar 21, 7:04 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Because they exhibit zero evidence of such. They exhibit only evidence > > that they are hungry, tired, or uncomfortable, and when the > > appropriate stimulus is applied, they become peaceful. Have you ever > > seen behaviour from an infant that you consider to be truly mean > > spirited that could not be more accurately attributed to another more > > common infantile behaviour? > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Infants aren't mean spirited.<<<CJ > > > > How do you know this? > > > > On Mar 21, 10:34 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> "Mean Spirited" typically goes hand in hand with either "spoiled", > > >> "neglected", or "abused". > > > >> Infants aren't mean spirited. > > > >> On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 9:29 AM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > She boiled her baby because a series of > > >> > childhood traumas and negative adult life events led her to a crystal > > >> > meth addiction which so impaired her judgement that she quite > > >> > literally lost her mind. Neither of these hypothetical examples is in > > >> > any way supportive of the concept of innate evil. <<<CJ > > > >> > Actually she was a mean spirited little girl whose parents sent her > > >> > off to live in a convent under the loving care of nuns who nurtured > > >> > her into a tender loving woman, so kind and sweet she was, until that > > >> > day came, the day that no one understands, the day that she killed her > > >> > husband and boiled her baby.................but the scientific > > >> > community said it was just postpartum disorder, a simple hormonal mood > > >> > swing, not to worry. > > > >> > On Mar 20, 11:39 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> >> > How can something be both innate, and learned?<<CJ > > > >> >> > I see a problem here on the interpretive level. > > > >> >> > I said clearly......... "As much as we can accept the (possibility) > > >> >> > that good and > > >> >> > evil are innate qualities embedded in the psyche , we (can't rule > > >> >> > out) > > >> >> > that "forces/energies" beyond our physical space can have or attempt > > >> >> > influence upon our action. > > > >> >> > The content is clearly not a statement of absolutes. What is > > >> >> > unrecognized are the variable aspects of innateness, ie; the degree > > >> >> > of > > >> >> > the good/evil personae. Take for example a crime witness quote "I > > >> >> > new > > >> >> > he was bad but I didn't think he was capable of such a heinous act". > > >> >> > OR "I know she was a bad mother but don't understand what possessed > > >> >> > her to boil her baby". > > > >> >> ...and I opened with a reference to Russell's Teapot. "Not ruling out" > > >> >> leaves a wide swath for speculation. I recognized that you > > >> >> specifically weren't making an absolute statement. I'm referring to > > >> >> the concepts of good and evil, which are themselves statements of > > >> >> absolute judgment. The crime witness statements you are talking about > > >> >> are not some recognition of any real quality, but an example of > > >> >> cognitive bias on the part of the witness. > > > >> >> > So there is a "degree" of innate good/evil but in reiteration, we > > >> >> > can't rule out the forces/energies can have or attempt influence on > > >> >> > a > > >> >> > person. > > > >> >> You've moved now into a QED follow up without ever having supported > > >> >> your initial statement. I see nowhere where you have demonstrated from > > >> >> the hypothetical witness statements how that supports an idea of an > > >> >> innate good or evil. > > > >> >> He was capable of such a heinous act because he was a progressively > > >> >> degenerative schizophrenic. She boiled her baby because a series of > > >> >> childhood traumas and negative adult life events led her to a crystal > > >> >> meth addiction which so impaired her judgement that she quite > > >> >> literally lost her mind. Neither of these hypothetical examples is in > > >> >> any way supportive of the concept of innate evil. > > > >> >> Also as had been discussed early in the thread, the > > > >> >> > interpretation of good/evil is in how it is defined. So what I'm > > >> >> > trying to get at here is that a person can have qualities that are > > >> >> > innate and yet be influenced by said other. Might hatred be innate > > >> >> > but not murder? > > > >> >> innate > > >> >> Adjective > > >> >> existing from birth, rather than acquired; inborn > > > >> >> Where would hatred be stored in an infant? Have you seen some research > > >> >> somewhere that suggests a "Hatred Gene"? > > > >> >> > You state factually "We are taught what good and evil are, not born > > >> >> > with it." <<CJ > > > >> >> > That is a matter of opinion, one that I disagree with. > > > >> >> Actually, no. That is a matter of the preponderance of scientific > > >> >> thought in the psychological, sociological, and anthropological fields > > >> >> based on clinical and field study. You are free to disagree with the > > >> >> conclusions drawn, but understand that the reason I state it factually > > >> >> is because it is accepted as fact. > > > >> >> I look at > > > >> >> > people like Dahmer who, during early childhood without parental > > >> >> > knowledge, already exhibited patterns of morbid interests, defined > > >> >> > by > > >> >> > society as evil. You think he was "taught" this but I think he was > > >> >> > born that way and so are many other children that display similar > > >> >> > (evil) tendencies. The same goes for the "good". > > > >> >> Interesting speculation, but without the facts, it's nothing more. For > > >> >> the vast majority of sociopaths and psychopaths, there is a clear > > >> >> pathology, typically schizophrenia of some sort, aggravated by > > >> >> childhood trauma. Minus the trauma which triggers the maladjustment, > > >> >> the vast majority of schizophrenics can live a fairly functional or > > >> >> even high functioning life...I'd hope that mental illness isn't the > > >> >> "innate evil" quality that you're referring to. > > > >> >> > If you spend some time in a room with a large group of one year old > > >> >> > children, you can easily see the good/bad, which at that age is > > >> >> > hardly > > >> >> > learned. What children "learn" is what aspects of their (innate) > > >> >> > behavior is unacceptable in our/their society and which aspects are > > >> >> > perceived by our/their society as good and evil. > > > >> >> I wonder what "good/bad" you are referring to? Being a father of two, > > >> >> and part of a large family, I've certainly had many opportunities to > > >> >> witness large groups of small children at play. One year olds are a > > >> >> perfect example of humans in their natural form...selfish, not > > >> >> understanding of the group dynamic, eager to play and learn and fit > > >> >> in, but also wanting every toy for themselves. I've never seen a one > > >> >> year old child I thought was a "bad" child. I've certainly, however, > > >> >> seen all of us acting as parents, teaching them what is "right and > > >> >> wrong", and imprinting our social mores upon them. We subvert the > > >> >> basic animal instinct that all living things are born with, the > > >> >> Darwinian imperative, which is to horde resources, and procreate as > > >> >> frequently as possible, and replace them with whichever social mores > > >> >> reflect the social system we are born into...and thus our concept of > > >> >> good and evil are born. > > > >> >> > There was a thread not long ago, chris, in which a new member > > >> >> > misinterpreted your post about how children break their toys. While > > >> >> > you were intending to make another point the member took it as a > > >> >> > declaration that negativity was a good thing. You do remember? > > >> >> > This is typical of internet discussion dynamics. Sometimes we need > > >> >> > to > > >> >> > slow down to understand each other and clarify content. > > > >> >> Indeed...in fact, you also misunderstood me in an earlier post, when I > > >> >> sought to delineate fact knowledge from faith knowledge. I suggested > > >> >> that in a dialectic pursuit, it was important to separate what you > > >> >> know, from what you know. I'm comfortable with the fact that I will be > > >> >> sometimes misunderstood in intent or tone. That's the nature of the > > >> >> beast. I don't let it distract my focus from the conversation at hand. > > > >> >> > Slip > > > >> >> > On Mar 19, 10:44 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> > > >> >> > wrote: > > >> >> >> Nor can we rule out that Russell's Teapot is orbiting Saturn, but > > >> >> >> we don't entertain serious conversation about it. What's > > >> >> >> intersting to me is that you don't note the contradictory nature > > >> >> >> of your paragraph. How can something be both innate, and > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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