Well there you go then, the outside field is stored in our DNA coding.
On Mar 23, 4:15 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote:
> All other innate qualities ARE data, and are stored in our DNA.
>
>
>
> [ Attached Message ]From:Slip Disc <[email protected]>To:"\"Minds Eye\""
> <[email protected]>Date:Mon, 23 Mar 2009 13:15:52 -0700
> (PDT)Local:Mon, Mar 23 2009 3:15 pmSubject:[Mind's Eye] Re: Does evil exist?
>
> If there were some outside field of Good/Evil which translated into an
> innate quality in a newborn child, how do you posit that data would be
> stored?>>CJ
>
> I guess it would be stored in the same way other innate qualities are
> stored and I would not consider it data.
>
> On Mar 22, 11:27 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Indeed. In fact, this very line of conjecture serves more to illustrate our
> > worldviews and dialectical positions than it does to resolve any ancient
> > enigmas. In the end, perhaps that is the true point of the Mind's Eye.
>
> > But I digress.
>
> > Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. I agree with this axiom,
> > but find it lacking as a principle to build on, only a warning against
> > using that one line of defense as an absolute. You'll note that in each
> > response, I rely on the evidence in favor of my position, and only question
> > the lack of evidence in yours,as opposed to using that as evidence for my
> > own.
>
> > The suicide of the principal in your example is very unfortunate, because
> > it prevents us from knowing the truth. In countless cases, the sad but
> > predictable pathologies are invariably textbook cases of linear
> > progressions of environmental stimulus causing psychological response. From
> > the Menendez brothers to John Wayne Gacy, the stories play out along
> > distinctly plottable tracks.
>
> > If there were some outside field of Good/Evil which translated into an
> > innate quality in a newborn child, how do you posit that data would be
> > stored?
>
> > [ Attached Message ]From:Slip Disc <[email protected]>To:"\"Minds Eye\""
> > <[email protected]>Date:Sun, 22 Mar 2009 04:00:40 -0700
> > (PDT)Local:Sun, Mar 22 2009 6:00 amSubject:[Mind's Eye] Re: Does evil exist?
>
> > Lack of exhibition does not substantiate the claim. Evil does not
> > imply that a newborn should immediately do a 360 headspin, hiss and
> > spit blood out at you. This in no way indicates that evil does not
> > exist within a person or that it may manifest at a later date and
> > time, especially if there is intent, such as may be the case with
> > little Tim Kretschmer and Thomas Sullivan Jr
> > (link).http://www.nytimes.com/1988/01/11/nyregion/boy-kills-mother-and-himse...
> > There are numerous other examples of course and whether or not they
> > are attributed to evil is speculation without any means of
> > establishing factual evidence.
> > The argument of evil, or the evil argument, remains problematic in
> > that we can only deduce from a set premise only to reach a fallible
> > conclusion. We cannot prove or disprove the existence of evil but
> > only present assertions laden with ambiguity and perplexities and
> > there are no uniform opinions on the matter other than those of
> > segmented groups within society that deem evil existence as a
> > necessity to their function. Maybe we can simply eradicate evil
> > entirely by ruling out its existence through euphemistic tactic and
> > rid ourselves of it for good and the world can live in peace, and find
> > closure, of course. lol :-)
>
> > On Mar 21, 7:04 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Because they exhibit zero evidence of such. They exhibit only evidence
> > > that they are hungry, tired, or uncomfortable, and when the
> > > appropriate stimulus is applied, they become peaceful. Have you ever
> > > seen behaviour from an infant that you consider to be truly mean
> > > spirited that could not be more accurately attributed to another more
> > > common infantile behaviour?
>
> > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 5:24 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > Infants aren't mean spirited.<<<CJ
>
> > > > How do you know this?
>
> > > > On Mar 21, 10:34 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >> "Mean Spirited" typically goes hand in hand with either "spoiled",
> > > >> "neglected", or "abused".
>
> > > >> Infants aren't mean spirited.
>
> > > >> On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 9:29 AM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > >> > She boiled her baby because a series of
> > > >> > childhood traumas and negative adult life events led her to a crystal
> > > >> > meth addiction which so impaired her judgement that she quite
> > > >> > literally lost her mind. Neither of these hypothetical examples is in
> > > >> > any way supportive of the concept of innate evil. <<<CJ
>
> > > >> > Actually she was a mean spirited little girl whose parents sent her
> > > >> > off to live in a convent under the loving care of nuns who nurtured
> > > >> > her into a tender loving woman, so kind and sweet she was, until that
> > > >> > day came, the day that no one understands, the day that she killed
> > > >> > her
> > > >> > husband and boiled her baby.................but the scientific
> > > >> > community said it was just postpartum disorder, a simple hormonal
> > > >> > mood
> > > >> > swing, not to worry.
>
> > > >> > On Mar 20, 11:39 pm, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]>
> > > >> > wrote:
> > > >> >> On Thu, Mar 19, 2009 at 7:04 PM, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > >> >> > How can something be both innate, and learned?<<CJ
>
> > > >> >> > I see a problem here on the interpretive level.
>
> > > >> >> > I said clearly......... "As much as we can accept the
> > > >> >> > (possibility)
> > > >> >> > that good and
> > > >> >> > evil are innate qualities embedded in the psyche , we (can't rule
> > > >> >> > out)
> > > >> >> > that "forces/energies" beyond our physical space can have or
> > > >> >> > attempt
> > > >> >> > influence upon our action.
>
> > > >> >> > The content is clearly not a statement of absolutes. What is
> > > >> >> > unrecognized are the variable aspects of innateness, ie; the
> > > >> >> > degree of
> > > >> >> > the good/evil personae. Take for example a crime witness quote
> > > >> >> > "I new
> > > >> >> > he was bad but I didn't think he was capable of such a heinous
> > > >> >> > act".
> > > >> >> > OR "I know she was a bad mother but don't understand what
> > > >> >> > possessed
> > > >> >> > her to boil her baby".
>
> > > >> >> ...and I opened with a reference to Russell's Teapot. "Not ruling
> > > >> >> out"
> > > >> >> leaves a wide swath for speculation. I recognized that you
> > > >> >> specifically weren't making an absolute statement. I'm referring to
> > > >> >> the concepts of good and evil, which are themselves statements of
> > > >> >> absolute judgment. The crime witness statements you are talking
> > > >> >> about
> > > >> >> are not some recognition of any real quality, but an example of
> > > >> >> cognitive bias on the part of the witness.
>
> > > >> >> > So there is a "degree" of innate good/evil but in reiteration, we
> > > >> >> > can't rule out the forces/energies can have or attempt influence
> > > >> >> > on a
> > > >> >> > person.
>
> > > >> >> You've moved now into a QED follow up without ever having supported
> > > >> >> your initial statement. I see nowhere where you have demonstrated
> > > >> >> from
> > > >> >> the hypothetical witness statements how that supports an idea of an
> > > >> >> innate good or evil.
>
> > > >> >> He was capable of such a heinous act because he was a progressively
> > > >> >> degenerative schizophrenic. She boiled her baby because a series of
> > > >> >> childhood traumas and negative adult life events led her to a
> > > >> >> crystal
> > > >> >> meth addiction which so impaired her judgement that she quite
> > > >> >> literally lost her mind. Neither of these hypothetical examples is
> > > >> >> in
> > > >> >> any way supportive of the concept of innate evil.
>
> > > >> >> Also as had been discussed early in the thread, the
>
> > > >> >> > interpretation of good/evil is in how it is defined. So what I'm
> > > >> >> > trying to get at here is that a person can have qualities that are
> > > >> >> > innate and yet be influenced by said other. Might hatred be
> > > >> >> > innate
> > > >> >> > but not murder?
>
> > > >> >> innate
> > > >> >> Adjective
> > > >> >> existing from birth, rather than acquired; inborn
>
> > > >> >> Where would hatred be stored in an infant? Have you seen some
> > > >> >> research
> > > >> >> somewhere that suggests a "Hatred Gene"?
>
> > > >> >> > You state factually "We are taught what good and evil are, not
> > > >> >> > born
> > > >> >> > with it." <<CJ
>
> > > >> >> > That is a matter of opinion, one that I disagree with.
>
> > > >> >> Actually, no. That is a matter of the preponderance of scientific
> > > >> >> thought in the psychological, sociological, and anthropological
> > > >> >> fields
> > > >> >> based on clinical and field study. You are free to disagree with the
> > > >> >> conclusions drawn, but understand that the reason I state it
> > > >> >> factually
> > > >> >> is because it is accepted as fact.
>
> > > >> >> I look at
>
> > > >> >> > people like Dahmer who, during early childhood without parental
> > > >> >> > knowledge, already exhibited patterns of morbid interests,
> > > >> >> > defined by
> > > >> >> > society as evil. You think he was "taught" this but I think he
> > > >> >> > was
> > > >> >> > born that way and so are many other children that display similar
> > > >> >> > (evil) tendencies. The same goes for the "good".
>
> > > >> >> Interesting speculation, but without the facts, it's nothing more.
> > > >> >> For
> > > >> >> the vast majority of sociopaths and psychopaths, there is a clear
> > > >> >> pathology, typically schizophrenia of some sort, aggravated by
> > > >> >> childhood trauma. Minus the trauma which triggers the maladjustment,
> > > >> >> the vast majority of schizophrenics can live a fairly functional or
> > > >> >> even high functioning life...I'd hope that mental illness isn't the
> > > >> >> "innate evil" quality that you're referring to.
>
> > > >> >> > If you spend some time in a room with a large group of one year
> > > >> >> > old
> > > >> >> > children, you can easily see the good/bad, which at that age is
> > > >> >> > hardly
> > > >> >> > learned. What children "learn" is what aspects of their (innate)
> > > >> >> > behavior is unacceptable in our/their society and which aspects
> > > >> >> > are
> > > >> >> > perceived by our/their society as good and evil.
>
> > > >> >> I wonder what "good/bad" you are referring to? Being a father of
> > > >> >> two,
> > > >> >> and part of a large family, I've certainly had many opportunities to
> > > >> >> witness large groups of small children at play. One year olds are a
> > > >> >> perfect example of humans in their natural form...selfish, not
> > > >> >> understanding of the group
>
> ...
>
> read more »
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