Thanks for the flowers, gruff ;-) I think the way this thread has been developing is interesting - and, at least for me, very helpful.
I started by asking a general question about morality. This was followed by a general discussion. The area of human sexuality did not initially arise in this context - a sign for me of maturity and quality in the group, in marked contrast to many discussions of morality, particularly those dominated by people designating themselves as Christians, who often tend to weight the whole question of morality in the area of sexuality. Sexuality was then specifically proposed as a particular area, which helped (me) to clarify some broader ideas on the basis of particular questions. On reflection, I've been thinking that one concept is emerging which I would now like to throw into the mix. It strikes me that the idea of integrity could be quite central to an exploration of what morality means. The word has semantic connections with images of oneness, wholeness, consistency, autonomy. It helps me to see a mature, internalised morality as something to do with personal development and growth, a dynamic state of being congruent with oneself, standing in and acting out of one's own centre. Integrity implies acting out of a state of wholeness with oneself and one's environment, of inner peace. Not a state which has been achieved, but rather a developing depth in personal growth. Such a concept could also give many of us a common denominator, independent of differing views concerning possible deeper philosophical/spiritual roots of human life or existence. Francis On 9 Apr., 20:15, gruff <[email protected]> wrote: > "... On Apr 9, 10:05 am, frantheman <[email protected]> > wrote: ..." > > > Sexual relationships with children are immoral because they are > > always an abuse of power and trust. > > This is quite possibly absolutely true but the fact that this is a > relatively new mindset in our species must also be considered in the > gestalt. As with all new mindsets, it is accompanied by a great deal > of emotionalism which, as I have said, clouds the mind and the ability > to perceive and think rationally, which is the only means of achieving > a healthy resolution of any perceived problem. My only disclaimer is > that I can conceive of a healthy sexual relationship between parent > and child but the odds against it are astronomical. > > > We should be aware of some important distinctions here. Children are > > not asexual, they have their own appropriate sexuality. There is a > > childish sexual aspect for children to relationships, particularly to > > their parents and those they love, and especially regarding their > > mothers. There seems to be little doubt that nursing/breast feeding > > has a sexual component for infants and small children. This is natural > > and inevitable, as children experience holistically and completely - > > growing up and learning has much to do with developing capacities to > > differentiate. > > Very well put. Good thinking Francis. It is recognizing and > accepting such aspects of the issue that can lead to further insight > and eventually solution. > > > I've referred to Freud here before and, even if you don't want to go > > all the way with him, there seems to be little doubt that the process > > of maturing/developing/growing up has a deep sexual vector. > > I've heard that Freud has been "debunked" but I'm unclear as to how. > Personally I think he was right on the mark with regard human > sexuality. All one needs do is look about to see how much sex and > sexuality permeates our society. Even our religious symbols are > sexual icons. Sex inundates advertising. The admen have found that > sex literally sells anything -- food, toiletries, clothing, behavior > -- even sex. What I don't understand is how, in the midst of all this > overt and covert sexuality, many still cling to outmoded and > emotionally disturbed perspectives, burying heads collectively and > impliedly in the sands of ignorance. What can it be but their own > denied feelings, tendencies and inclinations in this respect. > > > The vital distinction is that children have a right to their own natural > > sexual > > development (which includes inquisitive investigation of their own > > bodies and the bodies of others). On THEIR terms, and in the security > > that adults will guide them, give them answers, show them limits and > > not abuse their trust. I see the disappearance of a lot of prudery and > > sexual repression in (western) society in the past half century as a > > positive development - growing up in Ireland in the 60s, I never saw > > my parents naked - my daughters' experience was different (and, I > > believe, better), and it certainly helped me (and them) being > > challenged by questions like, "Papa, why have you got a penis and I > > don't?" :-) > > I find yours to be a very enlightened and healthy perspective but then > Irish minds in some ways have always seemed to have a deeper insight > into the realities of human nature -- which may also explain why so > many of them are Catholic. I've a bit of the old sod myself. > > > The incest question is complex. I tend to see adult sexual > > relationships between parents and children as deeply problematic, > > because they seem to me to be distortions of the "normal" parent-child > > relationship. > > The question of incest is most certainly complex and where it overlaps > with the parent-child relationship, the healthier path should be the > proper one, yet I have questioned at times whether sex, just as every > other aspect of parenting a child, should not be part of that > relationship. As it is we mostly don't even discuss sex with our > children and leave them to go out and find out what's what on their > own which in turn brings up the sexual aspect of Lord of the Flies. > > > The sexual urge and the urge for power (over others) are > > very strong in human personalities and related to each other on many > > levels.. Parent-child relationships have a large and important power > > vector, which only works because it takes place within a context of > > love and trust. But inequality of power is one of the most corrupting > > things for any sexual relationship and such considerations raise major > > problems for sexual relationships between adult parents and children. > > Historically, taboos surrounding sexual relations between adult > > siblings (or close degrees of consanguinity) had justifiable genetic > > grounds. In a changed situation, where reliable contraception is > > possible, many of these taboos seem to lose force. Still, power issues > > within families should not be underestimated. > > You're remarkably insightful today. Either that or you always have > been and I'm just remarkable more aware today. But human beings are > indeed highly sexual and political and where sex and power interplay > with each other in any relationship, but especially in that between > parent and child, disastrous results are more often than not the rule > of the day. And when it's family politics -- well, that can result in > human behavior at its worst. Early on I adopted the rule that if > someone is family, that's a damned good reason to stay away from them > and as a result I feel I'm more of myself than any parent or > sibling. I was out on my own at fourteen and never looked back (till > the last few years when I decided to write my memoirs.) > > /e --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
