Yes I agree Vam. I was talking to my wife a while back about my father. We have quiet a history my dad and myself and it is certianly true that we do not see eye to eye on very much at all. I'm a 40 year old man who grew up (mostly) in London, I come from a large poor family and was beaten regularly. Of course this has effected my relationship with my dad, but I would still have him come and live with me if and when the time comes that he needs to be looked after.
He is my father how could I not? My wife disagrees, she has no love for the man, and truth be told he is not a very nice bloke. I shall insist on having him though if the need arises. On 16 July, 18:32, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > Wow, Fran, your spirit lit up the words ! > > Indeed. Care for the elderly in the family should be a part of our > living tradition, as it is ( still ) in several societies. In our > tradition here, it is referred to as ' Pitr Rin ' or ' indebtedness > to our fathers / ancestors.' The understanding is : We 've already > taken so much from our parents, teachers and other elders, that the > debt cannot be repaid ... hence, we must each do all we must. > > On Jul 16, 8:34 pm, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I think you're raising the right questions here, Molly. I've been > > working in geriatric and long-term intensive nursing (including many > > PVS people) for twenty years now and the issues are very complex. I'm > > saddened by the blanket condemnation of medical and care workers which > > frequently occours in this sort of discussion, while having become so > > resigned to it that I often just don't bother to contradict. The vast > > majority of those working in this area are highly-motivated, badly- > > paid professionals, who are working their asses off, round the clock, > > seven days a week to try to enable people in the last stages of their > > lives to experience the diginity which is their due. That they often > > don't succeed has more to do with the conditions under which they work > > - the priorities set by the socieities in which we live. The costs > > arguments sicken me, because they are, generally, a societal cop-out. > > Yes, it costs a lot to provide adequate, diginified care for the > > demented and senile, the multi-morbid and terminally ill, much more > > than our societies are prepared to pay. And yes, in our generally > > aging western socities, these costs are going to increase in the > > future. But the crocodile tears shed by those who dolefully proclaim > > that we cannot afford to provide all that is necessary and that we are > > going to have to more agressively triage are deeply hypocritical. > > > Our western societies are, in terms of per capita productivity, the > > richest that have ever existed. Providing adequate medical and nursing > > care is economically possible, if we are prepared to make the decision > > to do it. It is, economically seen, a far more productive area than > > the military-industrial complex (whose basic purpose is to literally > > pulverise created wealth) and, even in terms of national economies, > > investment in this area has huge positive aspects, as it involves > > retaining resources largely within the regions involved, creating and > > sustaining sustainable jobs, distributing wealth and resources within > > the economy - even in terms relating to transfers from the old to the > > young. Too many old people do not allow themselves the care they need > > and could afford, because this would diminish the capital inherited by > > their offspring (who are frequently not able or prepared to carry out > > this care themselves). For many complex reasons, the development of > > our societies in the past hundred years or so has led to the breakdown > > of old generational compacts - and the most we have developed to > > replace them is a brutal economisation and monetarisation of all > > aspects of human life. > > > If we were to accept these challenges, then the issue of assisted > > suicides would, I believe, diminish somewhat. I am extremely sceptical > > of groups like "Dignitas", seeing the thin end of a wedge here, > > potentially open to exploitation by the cold-eyed actuaries and > > accountants running our health insurance companies. From here it is no > > large step to some Soylent Green scenarios. There are many dangerous > > ideas lurking here, including a major defining one in our society, > > which identifies human worth with the concept of economic > > productivity. > > > People can and should die with dignity. I have been present at many > > deaths (none of them in any way assisted other than, in some cases, by > > discontinuation of pointless meds) and, in most cases, have > > experienced such events as a great privilege. Death is the culmination > > of life, its last, ultimate stage. In the vast majority of cases it is > > well capable of coming on its own, without any outside help. Issues > > such as bed-sores are completely avoidable, given adequate, > > professional care. We should be less worried about seeing dementia as > > a catastrophic loss of human dignity and more concerned with giving > > those suffering from it the support necessary to go on living > > dignified lives within their illness until they are able to accept and > > embrace death. Because, then it inevitably comes and it is something > > deeply beautiful. > > > Francis > > > On 16 Jul., 15:12, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I am appalled at our level of blame here. Currently in the US, we > > > have the ability to choose or not choose the medical model. No one is > > > forcing us to go to the doctor. Also, Hospice care is available to > > > everyone and free to Medicare recipients. The Hospice protocol is to > > > get rid of the meds and patients often see a rebound in health > > > afterward. It does not stop the end from coming. Trust in families > > > is an age old problem and I suppose, begins with us. We spend a life > > > time developing our relationships, and if they are not based on trust, > > > what can we expect in the end? Often, those left with all of the work > > > and responsibility of caring for the aged and dying in their families > > > are blamed for a reduction of assets. Not sure what they expect it to > > > cost. Because we never really know when the end is near, how do we > > > make the call about selling a home etc,.? More often than not, the > > > bickering about assets of the deceased is sour grapes. > > > > In the end, I think that if we have led a life of dignity, our death > > > with dignity will follow. This is not always the case for reasons > > > unexplained. Can we have faith our death is what we need it to be, no > > > matter how it appears outwardly? I think the issue of paid suicide is > > > much more complicated than the abortion issue, where the mother is the > > > decision maker and has rights in that she is pregnant and will > > > deliver. Alzheimer's patients would not have the cognitive ability to > > > make the decision to suicide. Should someone have the right to make > > > that for them? How about people with cognative disabilities? Should > > > we only keep them around if someone can afford to pay for their care? > > > > On Jul 16, 8:48 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Highly possible that Kevorkian presented a threat to the medical and > > > > more so the giant pharmaceutical industry. They would probably topple > > > > if terminally ill and elderly people decided to check out and skip the > > > > med bandwagon. It goes to show "again" how much power corporate > > > > lobbyists have on government, it's like a choke collar on a pit bull > > > > and as usually the people are the puppets and pawns in the money > > > > making game. The one drug that people can grow in their yards of > > > > course is illegal, they can't allow self medication that doesn't bring > > > > in revenue. > > > > > On Jul 16, 5:47 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > There comes a point of no return but do not think my mother ever > > > > > considered suicide to end her suffering. Strong willed, was she.//Your > > > > > post was interesting- perhaps Kevorkian was a threat to the medical > > > > > profession and the lucrative nursing home industry- plus the attendant > > > > > bureaucracies of the courts and social services. There is a case in my > > > > > local news where the daughter embezzled her mother's fortune via power > > > > > of attorney which is shameful- so family isn't always the answer, > > > > > either- neither are shady court appointed guardians.//This whole > > > > > business is going to get interesting as Social Security peters out and > > > > > the government must decide/ration health care costs- they could kill > > > > > one old bird with two stones.// What these new approaches may hasten > > > > > is a vigorous objection from active, healthy seniors who refuse to > > > > > submit to ageism and elder abuse and treasure their final years on > > > > > their own terms because they can and have earned the right to them. > > > > > Our society is youth oriented so it won't be easy. I find myself > > > > > looking at the images of middle aged to senior men and women and find > > > > > they are often stereotyped which is ridiculous and insulting. On the > > > > > other hand, you have Gloria Vanderbilt's new book "Obsession" which is > > > > > her Marquis de Sade experiment in elder-lust- she is 85! lol Poor > > > > > little Gloria- smutty at last! > > > > > > On Jul 16, 1:07 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > We put our pets down when they are no longer able to walk and > > > > > > function > > > > > > in their old age but we insanely subject ourselves to the aches of > > > > > > aging, the bed sores and agonizing pain that haunt our every > > > > > > conscious > > > > > > minute. I never did understand the Kevorkian problem, it's not like > > > > > > the people did not want to check out. I would think that early > > > > > > religious ideals embedded within the fabric of the country still > > > > > > have > > > > > > a grip on the acceptability of suicide, notions of good and bad > > > > > > forced > > > > > > upon the people regardless of their personal beliefs. As you pointed > > > > > > out, the idea that abortion is a acceptable practice is > > > > > > dumbfounding, > > > > > > where does the choice of life or death lie in that? It is all about > > > > > > political ownership of life. We develop lousy governments to boss us > > > > > > around. > > > > > > > On Jul 15, 2:29 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > >http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/world/europe/15britain.html > > > > > > > > With a swoon of Prokofiev! Read the reader comments as well as > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
