While here the family is scattered- USA. Good and bad consequences. I love the adventurous choices of my children but have faced moments of needing them. Friends can't "cut it". One needs an intimate bond. And you would be shocked at what money adds to the drama of human motives- maybe not- but Probate Court is harsh teacher.// I will continue to be down-to earth and leave my children a mess, I suppose. My youngest son wants me to go up to the attic and put that Michael Jackson doll with the silver glove on e-bay. lol After all the years of tending, solving- I quit.
On Jul 16, 12:32�pm, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > Wow, Fran, your spirit lit up the words ! > > Indeed. �Care for the elderly in the family should be a part of our > living tradition, as it is ( still ) in several societies. In our > tradition here, it is referred to as ' Pitr Rin ' �or �' indebtedness > to our fathers / ancestors.' �The understanding is : �We 've already > taken so much from our parents, teachers and other elders, that the > debt cannot be repaid ... �hence, we must each do all we must. > > On Jul 16, 8:34�pm, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I think you're raising the right questions here, Molly. I've been > > working in geriatric and long-term intensive nursing (including many > > PVS people) for twenty years now and the issues are very complex. I'm > > saddened by the blanket condemnation of medical and care workers which > > frequently occours in this sort of discussion, while having become so > > resigned to it that I often just don't bother to contradict. The vast > > majority of those working in this area are highly-motivated, badly- > > paid professionals, who are working their asses off, round the clock, > > seven days a week to try to enable people in the last stages of their > > lives to experience the diginity which is their due. That they often > > don't succeed has more to do with the conditions under which they work > > - the priorities set by the socieities in which we live. The costs > > arguments sicken me, because they are, generally, a societal cop-out. > > Yes, it costs a lot to provide adequate, diginified care for the > > demented and senile, the multi-morbid and terminally ill, much more > > than our societies are prepared to pay. And yes, in our generally > > aging western socities, these costs are going to increase in the > > future. But the crocodile tears shed by those who dolefully proclaim > > that we cannot afford to provide all that is necessary and that we are > > going to have to more agressively triage are deeply hypocritical. > > > Our western societies are, in terms of per capita productivity, the > > richest that have ever existed. Providing adequate medical and nursing > > care is economically possible, if we are prepared to make the decision > > to do it. It is, economically seen, a far more productive area than > > the military-industrial complex (whose basic purpose is to literally > > pulverise created wealth) and, even in terms of national economies, > > investment in this area has huge positive aspects, as it involves > > retaining resources largely within the regions involved, creating and > > sustaining sustainable jobs, distributing wealth and resources within > > the economy - even in terms relating to transfers from the old to the > > young. Too many old people do not allow themselves the care they need > > and could afford, because this would diminish the capital inherited by > > their offspring (who are frequently not able or prepared to carry out > > this care themselves). For many complex reasons, the development of > > our societies in the past hundred years or so has led to the breakdown > > of old generational compacts - and the most we have developed to > > replace them is a brutal economisation and monetarisation of all > > aspects of human life. > > > If we were to accept these challenges, then the issue of assisted > > suicides would, I believe, diminish somewhat. I am extremely sceptical > > of groups like "Dignitas", seeing the thin end of a wedge here, > > potentially open to exploitation by the cold-eyed actuaries and > > accountants running our health insurance companies. From here it is no > > large step to some Soylent Green scenarios. There are many dangerous > > ideas lurking here, including a major defining one in our society, > > which identifies human worth with the concept of economic > > productivity. > > > People can and should die with dignity. I have been present at many > > deaths (none of them in any way assisted other than, in some cases, by > > discontinuation of pointless meds) and, in most cases, have > > experienced such events as a great privilege. Death is the culmination > > of life, its last, ultimate stage. In the vast majority of cases it is > > well capable of coming on its own, without any outside help. Issues > > such as bed-sores are completely avoidable, given adequate, > > professional care. We should be less worried about seeing dementia as > > a catastrophic loss of human dignity and more concerned with giving > > those suffering from it the support necessary to go on living > > dignified lives within their illness until they are able to accept and > > embrace death. Because, then it inevitably comes and it is something > > deeply beautiful. > > > Francis > > > On 16 Jul., 15:12, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I am appalled at our level of blame here. �Currently in the US, we > > > have the ability to choose or not choose the medical model. �No one is > > > forcing us to go to the doctor. �Also, Hospice care is available to > > > everyone and free to Medicare recipients. �The Hospice protocol is to > > > get rid of the meds and patients often see a rebound in health > > > afterward. �It does not stop the end from coming. �Trust in families > > > is an age old problem and I suppose, begins with us. �We spend a life > > > time developing our relationships, and if they are not based on trust, > > > what can we expect in the end? �Often, those left with all of the work > > > and responsibility of caring for the aged and dying in their families > > > are blamed for a reduction of assets. �Not sure what they expect it to > > > cost. �Because we never really know when the end is near, how do we > > > make the call about selling a home etc,.? �More often than not, the > > > bickering about assets of the deceased is sour grapes. > > > > In the end, I think that if we have led a life of dignity, our death > > > with dignity will follow. �This is not always the case for reasons > > > unexplained. �Can we have faith our death is what we need it to be, no > > > matter how it appears outwardly? �I think the issue of paid suicide is > > > much more complicated than the abortion issue, where the mother is the > > > decision maker and has rights in that she is pregnant and will > > > deliver. �Alzheimer's patients would not have the cognitive ability to > > > make the decision to suicide. �Should someone have the right to make > > > that for them? �How about people with cognative disabilities? �Should > > > we only keep them around if someone can afford to pay for their care? > > > > On Jul 16, 8:48�am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Highly possible that Kevorkian presented a threat to the medical and > > > > more so the giant pharmaceutical industry. �They would probably topple > > > > if terminally ill and elderly people decided to check out and skip the > > > > med bandwagon. �It goes to show "again" how much power corporate > > > > lobbyists have on government, it's like a choke collar on a pit bull > > > > and as usually the people are the puppets and pawns in the money > > > > making game. �The one drug that people can grow in their yards of > > > > course is illegal, they can't allow self medication that doesn't bring > > > > in revenue. > > > > > On Jul 16, 5:47�am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > There comes a point of no return but do not think my mother ever > > > > > considered suicide to end her suffering. Strong willed, was she.//Your > > > > > post was interesting- perhaps Kevorkian was a threat to the medical > > > > > profession and the lucrative nursing home industry- plus the attendant > > > > > bureaucracies of the courts and social services. There is a case in my > > > > > local news where the daughter embezzled her mother's fortune via power > > > > > of attorney which is shameful- so family isn't always the answer, > > > > > either- neither are shady court appointed guardians.//This whole > > > > > business is going to get interesting as Social Security peters out and > > > > > the government must decide/ration health care costs- they could kill > > > > > one old bird with two stones.// What these new approaches may hasten > > > > > is a vigorous objection from active, healthy seniors who refuse to > > > > > submit to ageism and elder abuse and treasure their final years on > > > > > their own terms because they can and have earned the right to them. > > > > > Our society is youth oriented so it won't be easy. I find myself > > > > > looking at the images of middle aged to senior men and women and find > > > > > they are often stereotyped which is ridiculous and insulting. On the > > > > > other hand, you have Gloria Vanderbilt's new book "Obsession" which is > > > > > her Marquis de Sade experiment in elder-lust- she is 85! lol Poor > > > > > little Gloria- smutty at last! > > > > > > On Jul 16, 1:07 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > We put our pets down when they are no longer able to walk and > > > > > > function > > > > > > in their old age but we insanely subject ourselves to the aches of > > > > > > aging, the bed sores and agonizing pain that haunt our every > > > > > > conscious > > > > > > minute. I never did understand the Kevorkian problem, it's not like > > > > > > the people did not want to check out. I would think that early > > > > > > religious ideals embedded within the fabric of the country still > > > > > > have > > > > > > a grip on the acceptability of suicide, notions of good and bad > > > > > > forced > > > > > > upon the people regardless of their personal beliefs. As you pointed > > > > > > out, the idea that abortion is a acceptable practice is > > > > > > dumbfounding, > > > > > > where does the choice of life or death lie in that? It is all about > > > > > > political ownership of life. We develop lousy governments to boss us > > > > > > around. > > > > > > > On Jul 15, 2:29 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > >http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/world/europe/15britain.html > > > > > > > > With a swoon of Prokofiev! Read the reader comments as well as > > ... > > read more �- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
