Despite an artificial hip, rigsy, I still stand on both legs :-) The history of Christianity is full of gruesome horrors, as well as sublime inspiration - and everything in between. This is more or less true of practically every religion I can think of, with the exception of Pastafarianism (but only in the Al Dente denomination). Up to now, the history of religions has been generally identical with the history of humanity. As I stated in my previous post, I think it's time we grew out of them.
Francis On 24 Jul., 23:55, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > Given the gruesome history of Christianity, I think you haven't a leg > to stand on. > > On Jul 24, 4:50 pm, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Thank you for a very informative post, SeeMaat. > > > I appreciate the tenor of your exposition of Islam and accept > > completely that one cannot simply equate Islam with a particular > > extreme interpretation as exemplified by Al Qaida, or the Taliban. > > Millions of Muslims live tolerant upright lives and see their religion > > as something which enlightens them and supports them in this (Yusuf > > Islam [formerly known as Cat Stevens] is someone who immediately comes > > to mind). As do millions of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. > > > Nevertheless, this very point brings up a major problem. Just as you > > are convinced that your interpretation of the truth of Islam is > > correct, so is Mullah Omar, so are extremist Wahabi teachers in Saudi > > Arabia, so are, presumably, the religious figures associated with the > > Janjaweed (جنجويد) in Darfur, as are the many Islamic teachers who > > support the introduction of repressive, savage legal systems which > > they claim to be pure expressions of Sharia (شريعة ). > > > So how are we non-Muslims to judge which interpretation of Islam is > > the most faithful one - if any? (This is not alone a problem for > > Islam; George W. Bush also claimed to be guided by God - in a > > Christian context - a claim which horrified millions of others who > > also understand themselves as Christians. Jimmy Carter also professes > > his Christian faith very publicly, but it leads him to very different > > views of what God wants from society.) > > > Still, the atrocities carried out in the name of Islam in the past few > > dacades place, I would think, a special onus on the many millions of > > Muslims who interpret their religion in a more tolerant, merciful, > > rational manner to fight a true jihad within Islam against those who > > besmirch the image of their religion, their God and his prophet. I'm > > afraid I can sympathise with the feelings of some of those who post > > here who feel that this sort of jihad has been rather weak - at least > > publicly - up to now. I certainly would NOT include you in this > > judgment :-) > > > The issue of interpretation is central. As someone who is multi- > > lingual I appreciate - to an extent - the problems which arise in > > attempts to translate the Qur'an from Arabic into other languages. But > > the problem goes even deeper. The world has changed much in 1400 > > years, as have the societies in which Islam is practiced. Even the way > > Arabic is spoken and understood has changed and is continually > > changing - as is the case for every language. So the words of Muhammad > > as recorded in the Qur'an have to be interpreted even for a modern > > audience which understands Arabic, for language is always used and > > understood within particular contexts. The meaning of many words, as > > spoken and understood by the prophet and those who recorded his > > visions are not always identical with the way these words are used > > today. In the light of such considerations I have always regarded the > > propensity of Islam to accord the Arabic original of the Qur'an a > > privileged and preeminent place as somewhat disingenuous, elitist and > > culturally imperialistic - particularly with relation to a > > proclamation of a one, universal God, who is all-compassionate and > > merciful. Why on earth would such a God demand that he/she be prayed > > to in one particular language? Or demand that his/her followers > > refrain from eating pork (as long as it is hygienically prepared)? > > Such commandments are indications that the Qur'an is a document of its > > own time and context. There is nothing wrong with this, but it means > > that those who wish to find the essence of a divine message in the > > text must get involved with textual criticism and interpretation. Such > > critical approaches towards one's own religion are - to put it mildly > > - not encouraged, even within mainstream Islam (I referred to the > > historical roots for some of this in the "ask me about ..." thread > > recently). > > > This critical approach is, of course, a frequently risky course for > > the believer to take. In my own case, it led me through Christianity > > and beyond it to non-belief. This does not mean that I do not respect > > my former religion - even if I now hold that religious belief is > > mistaken and something that humanity would profit from growing out of. > > But it doesn't have to happen this way, I know many others who have > > followed this path and remained believers. And if Islam really wants > > to remain relevant and say something to our modern world, it is > > necessary for it to bcome much more self-critical. > > > Salaam/shalom/pace/peace/namaste! > > > Francis > > > On 24 Jul., 20:01, "SeeMaat;" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Who knows the thing .. of course not the same as heard by the > > > falsehoods with which people in fact do not know the truth ..! > > > > people should know > > > > 1. Allah is God. The great majority of the non-Muslims I meet believe > > > that Allah is a kind of personal name for some kind of small-"g" god, > > > perhaps like Jupiter or Vulcan (gods of the Roman pantheon). I've even > > > heard people refer contemptuously to the God of Islam as a "desert > > > god," as if Judaism and Christianity originated in Yankee Stadium or > > > something. The fact is that Allah is simply a compound word made from > > > the Arabic words al (the) and lah, (god): the God. Monotheism -- the > > > belief in a single, supreme, divine creator -- is the central and most > > > important aspect of Islam. (And it's pronounced uh-LAH, not "Al, uh?") > > > Even most English translations of the Qur'an I've seen do not > > > translate the word. I believe it is really problematic and misleading > > > not to translate such a key word for which there is an exact English > > > *****alent. > > > > Along these lines, I've taken several Muslims to task for using the > > > Arabic term for God when they're speaking in English: all it does it > > > serve to confuse those for whom it's never been made clear that Allah > > > is the same God worshipped by Jews and Christians. Muslims may differ > > > on various points with Jews and Christians, but this is not one of > > > them. You'd never know, though, from the way these groups act with > > > each other much of the time, that they each hold dear the same belief > > > in the God of Abraham, Moses, and of Jesus (for Christians and > > > Muslims) and, for Muslims, of Muhammad. (Muslims accept all the > > > prophets prior to Muhammad, including Jesus. More on Jesus shortly.) > > > > 2. The biggest sin is Islam is shirk: "associating partners with God." > > > Shirk may be generally defined as polytheism, but also includes such > > > things as the Christian concept of a triune God, or the worshipping of > > > anything other than God, whether it's a human being, any natural/human > > > creation or phenomenon. This tends to create quite a theological abyss > > > between Muslims and polytheists, but also with Christians and certain > > > other religious groups. > > > > You can imagine from this that expressions such as "Holy Mother of > > > God!" give most observant Muslims the theological willies. > > > > 3. Muslims don't believe that Jesus was the son of God. As mentioned > > > in #1, Muslims accept Jesus (in Arabic, "Isa") as a prophet, and an > > > extremely important one at that. Following from #2, however, they do > > > not accept the Christian belief that Jesus was the son of God > > > (literally or ****phorically), although they do believe he is the son > > > of Mary (in Arabic, "Maryam"). They further believe that at the time > > > of the Crucifixion, another man was substituted for Jesus and made to > > > look like him. Jesus was then raised up, "body and soul" by God into > > > heaven. > > > > This is probably the most significant point of difference between > > > Christians and Muslims. Some Christian theologians and clergy believe > > > that Christians err by placing too much emphasis on Jesus and > > > elevating him to God's level, but that's an argument for another time > > > and place. > > > > 4. Muslims don't worship the Prophet Muhammad. This naturally follows > > > from #2, but, I suspect because of the extreme emphasis on Jesus in > > > much of Christian practice, many assume that Islam parallels this with > > > Muhammad and Muslims. While the Prophet is considered by Muslims to > > > have been the human being with the best character, he is still > > > regarded as a human being, albeit an exceptional one. And while he is > > > regarded as the final prophet of God, he is not the only one. He does > > > not have divine status, although Muslims hold him in the highest > > > regard and are expected and encouraged to try to emulate his habits > > > and characteristics, those being of the highest quality. > > > > Muslims were for years incorrectly referred to as Mohammedans (spelled > > > variously). This has generally become archaic, but you still see it > > > now and then. It's actually profoundly offensive, since it implies > > > shirk. (And while we're on it, it's Muslim, not Moslem, and Qur'an or > > > Quran, not Koran.) > > > > 5. Translations of the Qur'an are not the Qur'an. It's well-known that > > > something is always lost in translation. For those English speakers > > > who don't ever expect to read the Bible in Hebrew, Aramaic, and > > > whatever other languages in which its component ****s originally > > > appeared, it seems to be accepted that translations of the Bible are > > > all more or less equally valid, although one may have a preferred > > > translation. But only the Qur'an in its original Arabic is considered > > > to be the Qur'an; translations are treated with great respect but are > > > simply not equally valid. Muslims believe that the Qur'an was revealed > > > to Muhammad (who was > > ... > > Erfahren Sie mehr » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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