I've been attending the Primavera Reformationists, and I have to say I enjoy both the diversity, and the freshness of the message.
On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 6:04 PM, frantheman <[email protected]>wrote: > > Despite an artificial hip, rigsy, I still stand on both legs :-) > > The history of Christianity is full of gruesome horrors, as well as > sublime inspiration - and everything in between. This is more or less > true of practically every religion I can think of, with the exception > of Pastafarianism (but only in the Al Dente denomination). Up to now, > the history of religions has been generally identical with the history > of humanity. As I stated in my previous post, I think it's time we > grew out of them. > > Francis > > On 24 Jul., 23:55, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > Given the gruesome history of Christianity, I think you haven't a leg > > to stand on. > > > > On Jul 24, 4:50 pm, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thank you for a very informative post, SeeMaat. > > > > > I appreciate the tenor of your exposition of Islam and accept > > > completely that one cannot simply equate Islam with a particular > > > extreme interpretation as exemplified by Al Qaida, or the Taliban. > > > Millions of Muslims live tolerant upright lives and see their religion > > > as something which enlightens them and supports them in this (Yusuf > > > Islam [formerly known as Cat Stevens] is someone who immediately comes > > > to mind). As do millions of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, etc. > > > > > Nevertheless, this very point brings up a major problem. Just as you > > > are convinced that your interpretation of the truth of Islam is > > > correct, so is Mullah Omar, so are extremist Wahabi teachers in Saudi > > > Arabia, so are, presumably, the religious figures associated with the > > > Janjaweed (جنجويد) in Darfur, as are the many Islamic teachers who > > > support the introduction of repressive, savage legal systems which > > > they claim to be pure expressions of Sharia (شريعة ). > > > > > So how are we non-Muslims to judge which interpretation of Islam is > > > the most faithful one - if any? (This is not alone a problem for > > > Islam; George W. Bush also claimed to be guided by God - in a > > > Christian context - a claim which horrified millions of others who > > > also understand themselves as Christians. Jimmy Carter also professes > > > his Christian faith very publicly, but it leads him to very different > > > views of what God wants from society.) > > > > > Still, the atrocities carried out in the name of Islam in the past few > > > dacades place, I would think, a special onus on the many millions of > > > Muslims who interpret their religion in a more tolerant, merciful, > > > rational manner to fight a true jihad within Islam against those who > > > besmirch the image of their religion, their God and his prophet. I'm > > > afraid I can sympathise with the feelings of some of those who post > > > here who feel that this sort of jihad has been rather weak - at least > > > publicly - up to now. I certainly would NOT include you in this > > > judgment :-) > > > > > The issue of interpretation is central. As someone who is multi- > > > lingual I appreciate - to an extent - the problems which arise in > > > attempts to translate the Qur'an from Arabic into other languages. But > > > the problem goes even deeper. The world has changed much in 1400 > > > years, as have the societies in which Islam is practiced. Even the way > > > Arabic is spoken and understood has changed and is continually > > > changing - as is the case for every language. So the words of Muhammad > > > as recorded in the Qur'an have to be interpreted even for a modern > > > audience which understands Arabic, for language is always used and > > > understood within particular contexts. The meaning of many words, as > > > spoken and understood by the prophet and those who recorded his > > > visions are not always identical with the way these words are used > > > today. In the light of such considerations I have always regarded the > > > propensity of Islam to accord the Arabic original of the Qur'an a > > > privileged and preeminent place as somewhat disingenuous, elitist and > > > culturally imperialistic - particularly with relation to a > > > proclamation of a one, universal God, who is all-compassionate and > > > merciful. Why on earth would such a God demand that he/she be prayed > > > to in one particular language? Or demand that his/her followers > > > refrain from eating pork (as long as it is hygienically prepared)? > > > Such commandments are indications that the Qur'an is a document of its > > > own time and context. There is nothing wrong with this, but it means > > > that those who wish to find the essence of a divine message in the > > > text must get involved with textual criticism and interpretation. Such > > > critical approaches towards one's own religion are - to put it mildly > > > - not encouraged, even within mainstream Islam (I referred to the > > > historical roots for some of this in the "ask me about ..." thread > > > recently). > > > > > This critical approach is, of course, a frequently risky course for > > > the believer to take. In my own case, it led me through Christianity > > > and beyond it to non-belief. This does not mean that I do not respect > > > my former religion - even if I now hold that religious belief is > > > mistaken and something that humanity would profit from growing out of. > > > But it doesn't have to happen this way, I know many others who have > > > followed this path and remained believers. And if Islam really wants > > > to remain relevant and say something to our modern world, it is > > > necessary for it to bcome much more self-critical. > > > > > Salaam/shalom/pace/peace/namaste! > > > > > Francis > > > > > On 24 Jul., 20:01, "SeeMaat;" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Who knows the thing .. of course not the same as heard by the > > > > falsehoods with which people in fact do not know the truth ..! > > > > > > people should know > > > > > > 1. Allah is God. The great majority of the non-Muslims I meet believe > > > > that Allah is a kind of personal name for some kind of small-"g" god, > > > > perhaps like Jupiter or Vulcan (gods of the Roman pantheon). I've > even > > > > heard people refer contemptuously to the God of Islam as a "desert > > > > god," as if Judaism and Christianity originated in Yankee Stadium or > > > > something. The fact is that Allah is simply a compound word made from > > > > the Arabic words al (the) and lah, (god): the God. Monotheism -- the > > > > belief in a single, supreme, divine creator -- is the central and > most > > > > important aspect of Islam. (And it's pronounced uh-LAH, not "Al, > uh?") > > > > Even most English translations of the Qur'an I've seen do not > > > > translate the word. I believe it is really problematic and misleading > > > > not to translate such a key word for which there is an exact English > > > > *****alent. > > > > > > Along these lines, I've taken several Muslims to task for using the > > > > Arabic term for God when they're speaking in English: all it does it > > > > serve to confuse those for whom it's never been made clear that Allah > > > > is the same God worshipped by Jews and Christians. Muslims may differ > > > > on various points with Jews and Christians, but this is not one of > > > > them. You'd never know, though, from the way these groups act with > > > > each other much of the time, that they each hold dear the same belief > > > > in the God of Abraham, Moses, and of Jesus (for Christians and > > > > Muslims) and, for Muslims, of Muhammad. (Muslims accept all the > > > > prophets prior to Muhammad, including Jesus. More on Jesus shortly.) > > > > > > 2. The biggest sin is Islam is shirk: "associating partners with > God." > > > > Shirk may be generally defined as polytheism, but also includes such > > > > things as the Christian concept of a triune God, or the worshipping > of > > > > anything other than God, whether it's a human being, any > natural/human > > > > creation or phenomenon. This tends to create quite a theological > abyss > > > > between Muslims and polytheists, but also with Christians and certain > > > > other religious groups. > > > > > > You can imagine from this that expressions such as "Holy Mother of > > > > God!" give most observant Muslims the theological willies. > > > > > > 3. Muslims don't believe that Jesus was the son of God. As mentioned > > > > in #1, Muslims accept Jesus (in Arabic, "Isa") as a prophet, and an > > > > extremely important one at that. Following from #2, however, they do > > > > not accept the Christian belief that Jesus was the son of God > > > > (literally or ****phorically), although they do believe he is the son > > > > of Mary (in Arabic, "Maryam"). They further believe that at the time > > > > of the Crucifixion, another man was substituted for Jesus and made to > > > > look like him. Jesus was then raised up, "body and soul" by God into > > > > heaven. > > > > > > This is probably the most significant point of difference between > > > > Christians and Muslims. Some Christian theologians and clergy believe > > > > that Christians err by placing too much emphasis on Jesus and > > > > elevating him to God's level, but that's an argument for another time > > > > and place. > > > > > > 4. Muslims don't worship the Prophet Muhammad. This naturally follows > > > > from #2, but, I suspect because of the extreme emphasis on Jesus in > > > > much of Christian practice, many assume that Islam parallels this > with > > > > Muhammad and Muslims. While the Prophet is considered by Muslims to > > > > have been the human being with the best character, he is still > > > > regarded as a human being, albeit an exceptional one. And while he is > > > > regarded as the final prophet of God, he is not the only one. He does > > > > not have divine status, although Muslims hold him in the highest > > > > regard and are expected and encouraged to try to emulate his habits > > > > and characteristics, those being of the highest quality. > > > > > > Muslims were for years incorrectly referred to as Mohammedans > (spelled > > > > variously). This has generally become archaic, but you still see it > > > > now and then. It's actually profoundly offensive, since it implies > > > > shirk. (And while we're on it, it's Muslim, not Moslem, and Qur'an or > > > > Quran, not Koran.) > > > > > > 5. Translations of the Qur'an are not the Qur'an. It's well-known > that > > > > something is always lost in translation. For those English speakers > > > > who don't ever expect to read the Bible in Hebrew, Aramaic, and > > > > whatever other languages in which its component ****s originally > > > > appeared, it seems to be accepted that translations of the Bible are > > > > all more or less equally valid, although one may have a preferred > > > > translation. But only the Qur'an in its original Arabic is considered > > > > to be the Qur'an; translations are treated with great respect but are > > > > simply not equally valid. Muslims believe that the Qur'an was > revealed > > > > to Muhammad (who was > > > > ... > > > > Erfahren Sie mehr » > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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