Or one if your are crazy or insanly happy!
On 21 Aug, 16:47, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote:
> Yes lee, it takes two to dance!
>
> On Aug 20, 12:03 pm, "[email protected]"
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In essance though any sort of pride in ones nation is logical
> > deadend. History shows us that all of our nations are guilty of great
> > sin as well as greatness.
>
> > If you feel proud to be English, do you also feel the shame that must
> > come along with the history of our Empire? Or if you feel proud to be
> > American, do you also feel the shame of the near genicide that gave
> > you the great tracts of land you have?
>
> > Logicaly if you feel pride you must also feel the shame, yet how many
> > people do?
>
> > History teaches us lots, but the greatest lesson we shoud learn, is
> > what not to do again. Ahhhh well that does not seem to be happening
> > just yet, and perhaps it never will. The Cuban crisis, well honeslty
> > I know nothing about it, but I'm willing to bet that it is not soley
> > on the shoulers of either Cuba or America, so can we agree to aportion
> > blame on both sides I wonder? Heh and I wouldn't be supprised if the
> > UK were in the mix somehwere, so come on chaps get it orf your chest,
> > call me a basterd and let that be an end to the blame giving huh!
>
> > n 20 Aug, 19:25, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Perhaps you present the fallacy of a special case? Truth is,
> > > 'it' (Cuban issues) as it is today, started long ago. The roots are
> > > firm and deep. The causes complex. And, the schoolmate of Fidel was
> > > the daughter (not an 'old man' today) of the top dentist in
> > > Havana...they were well placed and moneyed.
>
> > > Yes, perhaps some of your friends from Cuba weren’t able to have a
> > > cell phone. [fake tears]
>
> > > Perhaps they were among those let out of prison or the mental
> > > institutions. Neither you nor I know for sure. And, if anything, being
> > > younger just serves to be ignorant of the past in general. In this
> > > case, I wonder just how well educated they are on the US embargo?
> > > Also, it does sound like they have come to the right place for their
> > > proclivities.
>
> > > Overall, both countries can hold claim to having governments that are
> > > of the oligarchy class.
>
> > > On Aug 20, 9:42 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > Orn, Fallacy of Division?
>
> > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_division
>
> > > > Really.
>
> > > > The vast majority of the folks whom you refer to are old men. I'm
> > > > talking
> > > > about people in MY age group, kids who came across starting with the
> > > > Mariel
> > > > boat lift, and since then. They have no vested interest, except fleeing
> > > > a
> > > > starving and oppressed country for a land of opportunity.
>
> > > > Bay of Pigs, really? This isn't the sixties. We're talking about modern
> > > > times here.
>
> > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 12:24 PM, ornamentalmind
> > > > <[email protected]>wrote:
>
> > > > > Having lived in Florida, known gun runners for the Bay of Pigs as well
> > > > > as a woman who went to school with Fidel, it is easy to see why those
> > > > > thrown out by Fidel and/or those who had their businesses socialized
> > > > > would be anti-Cuban government. It is similar to corporations being
> > > > > anti-socialized medicine. There is a vested interest, period.
>
> > > > > On Aug 20, 8:24 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > Having been born in and spent much time in Miami, I've been exposed
> > > > > > to
> > > > > many
> > > > > > Cuban expatriates who lived under Fidel, and they are extremely
> > > > > > pro-American, and anti-Fidel. They describe a life of poverty and
> > > > > oppression
> > > > > > that in their experience, was caused not by '*El Bloqueo'*, but by
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > policies of Fidel's government. Dissent is punishable by death. The
> > > > > average
> > > > > > citizen of Cuba is not allowed a cell phone, but governmental
> > > > > > officials
> > > > > are.
> > > > > > The average citizen of Cuba is not allowed internet access, but
> > > > > governmental
> > > > > > officials are. Etc. Etc. Etc. Some of these things are beginning to
> > > > > change
> > > > > > now that Raoul is taking over day to day management of the country,
> > > > > > and I
> > > > > > think you will find that *'El Bloqueo'* will be quick to go away
> > > > > > with
> > > > > those
> > > > > > changes.
>
> > > > > > There has been a healthy commerce market in Cuba for this entire
> > > > > > time
> > > > > > despite the blockade, if you were a member of power. German
> > > > > > tourists had
> > > > > no
> > > > > > problem at all bringing their money there to spend, savoring the
> > > > > > local *
> > > > > > jineteras*, and throwing currency around freely. I know a half dozen
> > > > > people
> > > > > > who can provide me with "Dominican" cigars, picked up in Havana and
> > > > > routed
> > > > > > through D.R. to be banded, avoiding the blockade. The Party lives in
> > > > > > comfort, and allows its citizens to starve, and blames it on the US
> > > > > > in
> > > > > order
> > > > > > to stir up anti-American sentiment. It doesn't work. The citizens,
> > > > > > for
> > > > > the
> > > > > > most part, know better, and still come here in droves.
>
> > > > > > It's a shame you didn't make it down to Florida in your trip here.
> > > > > *Havanita
> > > > > > * would have provided you with an education from Cubans fresh off
> > > > > > the
> > > > > tire.
>
> > > > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Ian Pollard <[email protected]>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Chris,
>
> > > > > > > I don't know that I'm using hyperbole, but surely it's rather
> > > > > > > difficult
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > talk about Cuba and not be anti-American? I'm not defending acts
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > murder,
> > > > > > > but America is deeply culpable for the mess Cuba is in.
>
> > > > > > > Ian
>
> > > > > > > 2009/8/20 Chris Jenkins <[email protected]>
>
> > > > > > > That, and the fact that the current government there will shoot
> > > > > > > their
> > > > > whole
> > > > > > >> family for political dissent.
> > > > > > >> Let's not make it SOLELY anti-american hyperbole in your post,
> > > > > > >> eh,
> > > > > Ian?
>
> > > > > > >> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 3:04 AM, Ian Pollard
> > > > > > >> <[email protected]
> > > > > >wrote:
>
> > > > > > >>> 2009/8/19 BB47 <[email protected]>
>
> > > > > > >>>> Differences between people often come down to core
> > > > > > >>>> philosophical
> > > > > > >>>> issues. Simple ideas with vast implications. These issues are
> > > > > > >>>> often
> > > > > > >>>> ignored or not seen. Let me take the example of Cuba, just as
> > > > > > >>>> an
> > > > > > >>>> illustration. They have free health care and free university
> > > > > > >>>> education yet there are many of those people that decided to
> > > > > > >>>> risk
> > > > > > >>>> their very LIVES on a piece of wood through shark infested
> > > > > > >>>> waters
> > > > > to
> > > > > > >>>> get here, where there is no government health care.
>
> > > > > > >>> You love your strawmen, BB. :) Just to be clear on a point of
> > > > > > >>> fact:
> > > > > > >>> Cuban's are not risking their lives to escape free health care
> > > > > > >>> and
> > > > > education
> > > > > > >>> because they reeeeally want to pay for these services. They risk
> > > > > their lives
> > > > > > >>> to earn money for their families which is otherwise unattainable
> > > > > because of
> > > > > > >>> the isolation caused by el bloqueo.
>
> > > > > > >>> Ian- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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