Interesting that you would use the word 'Socialist' in conjunction with Cuba, Ian. Most people use a different word to describe Maoist China, the USSR, and Cuba: Communist. Unlike many Americans, I'm well versed in the difference. India is a Socialist country. Many European countries have variations of a Socialist ideal. One thing you will not find there are dissidents. Google 'Cuban Dissident' and tell me how many hits you find. All of your examples are remnants of the cold war, a time when Cuba was being used as a pawn by the Soviet Union in a battle with the US. Pointing the finger solely at the US for that is disingenuous at best. In the midst of our 'Red Scare', with the Soviet Premiere welcoming Castro with open arms and supporting him militarily, the idea of Soviet Nukes 90 miles off the shore of Florida was untenable. Even still, this is a red herring to the conversation at hand.
If you think that the governmental policies are the only factor keeping the average Cuban poor is plain wrong, then why won't the govenment pay the average Cuban in dollars, or adjust the value of pesos to be equivalent, when they are quite content to use that currency among themselves? Why, or from what source, do you think there is still support for a worker state? (I'd venture to say if you have a source at all, it would be similar in nature to hearing support for Kim Jong Il from the average North Korean citizen...duress does wonders for your political views). These are not EXILES who are in Miami, they are ESCAPEES. Did you read the Global Policy report? Your choice of wording indicates a strong bias against those who have left, without having any idea what their story is. Castro does not allow exit anymore...they have not been castaway, they risk their lives to flee and come to the US. The ideology has always been questionable, which is why there has not been a successful Communist nation to date. The USSR failed, and adjusted to a more capitalist authoritarian state. China has shifted to a more capitalist totalitarianism. Cuba is now doing the same. Do you really blame the US for all of these? Can you not see that it is indeed an indictment of the ideology, that from each according to his ability, to each according to his need, discounts both the lack of motivation, and the basic tenets of greed and corruption? Cuba was founded in a partnership of blood and hate, and ruled with an iron fist. Che was not the hero the idealists make him out to be, and Raoul has been waiting long years for his brother to die in order to save his country by becoming a moderate presiding over a modern island. When Fidel finally passes, a great cheer will ring out across Cuba as the island is finally free, mark my words. On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 5:40 PM, Ian Pollard <[email protected]> wrote: > Chris, > > Cuba has basically been raped by the United States -- > invasion<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion>, > assassination<http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/aug/03/cuba.duncancampbell2> > attempts<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding_cigar#CIA_plot_to_assassinate_Castro>, > insane plans to murder American citizens in fake terror > attacks<http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1>to win > public support for a direct > war<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods>, > sponsoring terrorist organisations (Alpha > 66<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha_66>, > Omega 7 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_7>, and probably > CORU<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CORU>), > propaganda, endless CIA organised subversion of the state, Guantanamo, or > just plain old > mischief<http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/27/us-mission-ticker-cuba>. > America has been absolutely committed to ensuring that a socialist state so > close to its border fails in the worst possible way and at the most severe > cost. > > As a socialist experiment, Cuba is probably finished. The increased > injection of foreign investment over the last 20 years has only fuelled the > corruption and unbalanced the already damaged state. I feel like the > government has had little choice but to embrace the cash on whatever terms > they can live with, but to say that their policies are the only factor > keeping the average Cuban is plain wrong. There is still support for a > worker state (you won't hear this from exiles), but the history of US > meddling has now probably made sure the idea is finished. This is no > indictment of the ideology's effectiveness, only of American hegemony. > > Ian > > > > > 2009/8/20 Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> > > They were the children and young adults who lived in the country, from 1981 >> and on. Not a special case, but the average populace. Do you know anything >> about the average populace or economy of Cuba? Have you traveled there >> anytime in the last 30 years, or met anyone from there within the last 30 >> years? Do you know anything about the modern economy there? Based on your >> arguments, it really doesn't seem so. Cuba has a booming economy, and it is >> ONLY governmental policies which keep the average Cuban citizen starving. >> The Cuban government is the primary employer, and pays in pesos. However, >> since the Dollarization, Dollars and Euros are accepted, and preferred, and >> the pesos hold little value. The government encourages and accepts foreign >> currency, but does not pass that value on to its citizens. Additionally, the >> wealth that it generates from foreign business is throttled to its >> leadership, and not passed down to its citizens, to the point where >> its people are starving, and the number one job for a woman to have to >> support her family is PROSTITUTE. No matter what you might care to say about >> America, that's something you can't lay at our government's feet. Read on >> for an education about modern Cuba. >> >> " Between 1990 and 2000, more than $3.5 billion was invested in the >> tourist industry. The number of rooms available to international tourists >> grew from 12,000 to >> 35,000,[8]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Cuba#cite_note-Rockefeller-7>and >> the country received a total of 10 million visitors over that period. >> [5] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Cuba#cite_note-Miguel-4> By >> 1995 the industry had surpassed sugar as Cuba's chief earner. >> >> Today, Cuba welcomes travelers from around the world, and especially >> Canada, Germany <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany>, the United >> Kingdom <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom>, >> Spain<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain>, >> Italy <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy>, >> France<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France>and >> Mexico <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico>. In recent years, more than >> 600,000 Canadians, 200,000 British, 153,197 Spanish >> [9]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tourism_in_Cuba#cite_note-8>and 114,000 >> Germans have visited Cuba annually. >> >> Foreign investment in the Cuban tourism sector has increased steadily >> since the tourism drive. This has been made possible due to constitutional >> changes to Cuba's socialist command >> economy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_economy>, >> to allow for the recognition of foreign held capital. >> >> By the late 1990s, twenty five joint foreign and domestic venture >> companies were working within Cuba's tourist industry. Foreign investors and >> hoteliers from market based economies have found that Cuba's centralized >> economy and bureaucracy has created particular staffing issues and higher >> costs then normal. An additional factor cited by foreign investors is the >> degree of state involvement at the executive level, which is far higher than >> average. >> >> The influx of foreign capital, and associated capitalist management >> methods, led outside observers to question whether Cuba's socialist system >> could survive the resulting transformation. Fidel Castro responsed in 1991, >> >> "In the conditions of a small country like Cuba... It is very difficult to >> develop... relying on one's own resources. It is for this reason that we >> have no alternative but to associate ourselves with those foreign >> enterprises that can supply capital, technology, and markets." >> >> Castro was also of the belief that despite the undeniable influence of >> "capitalist ideology", socialism would prevail both in Cuba and the wider >> "battle of ideas". >> >> As well as receiving traditional tourism revenues, Cuba attracts health >> tourists <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_tourists>, generating >> revenues of around $40m a year for the Cuban economy. Cuba has been a >> popular health tourism destination for more than 20 years. In 2005 more than >> 19,600 foreign patients traveled to Cuba for a wide range of treatments >> including eye-surgery <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye-surgery>, >> neurological <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurological> disorders such >> as multiple sclerosis <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_sclerosis>and >> Parkinsons >> disease <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinsons_disease>, and >> orthopaedics <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthopaedics>. Many patients >> are from Latin America although medical treatment for retinitis >> pigmentosa <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retinitis_pigmentosa>, often >> known as night blindness <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_blindness>, >> has attracted many patients from Europe and North America. >> >> An Oct 2007 Miami Herald story addressed the high quality of health care >> that Canadian and American medical >> tourism<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism>patients receive in >> Cuba. >> >> Some complaints have arisen that foreign "health tourists" paying with >> dollars receive a higher quality of care than Cuban citizens. Former leading >> Cuban neurosurgeon <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurosurgeon> and >> dissident <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissident> Dr. Hilda >> Molina<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilda_Molina>asserts that the central >> revolutionary objective of free, quality medical >> care for all has been eroded by Cuba's need for foreign currency. Molina >> says that following the economic collapse known in Cuba as the Special >> Period <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Period>, the Cuban >> Government established mechanisms designed to turn the medical system into a >> profit-making enterprise, thus creating a disparity in the quality of >> healthcare services between Cubans and foreigners. >> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 2:25 PM, ornamentalmind < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> Perhaps you present the fallacy of a special case? Truth is, >>> 'it' (Cuban issues) as it is today, started long ago. The roots are >>> firm and deep. The causes complex. And, the schoolmate of Fidel was >>> the daughter (not an 'old man' today) of the top dentist in >>> Havana...they were well placed and moneyed. >>> >>> Yes, perhaps some of your friends from Cuba weren’t able to have a >>> cell phone. [fake tears] >>> >>> Perhaps they were among those let out of prison or the mental >>> institutions. Neither you nor I know for sure. And, if anything, being >>> younger just serves to be ignorant of the past in general. In this >>> case, I wonder just how well educated they are on the US embargo? >>> Also, it does sound like they have come to the right place for their >>> proclivities. >>> >>> Overall, both countries can hold claim to having governments that are >>> of the oligarchy class. >>> >>> On Aug 20, 9:42 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > Orn, Fallacy of Division? >>> > >>> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_division >>> > >>> > Really. >>> > >>> > The vast majority of the folks whom you refer to are old men. I'm >>> talking >>> > about people in MY age group, kids who came across starting with the >>> Mariel >>> > boat lift, and since then. They have no vested interest, except fleeing >>> a >>> > starving and oppressed country for a land of opportunity. >>> > >>> > Bay of Pigs, really? This isn't the sixties. We're talking about modern >>> > times here. >>> > >>> > On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 12:24 PM, ornamentalmind >>> > <[email protected]>wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > Having lived in Florida, known gun runners for the Bay of Pigs as >>> well >>> > > as a woman who went to school with Fidel, it is easy to see why those >>> > > thrown out by Fidel and/or those who had their businesses socialized >>> > > would be anti-Cuban government. It is similar to corporations being >>> > > anti-socialized medicine. There is a vested interest, period. >>> > >>> > > On Aug 20, 8:24 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> > > > Having been born in and spent much time in Miami, I've been exposed >>> to >>> > > many >>> > > > Cuban expatriates who lived under Fidel, and they are extremely >>> > > > pro-American, and anti-Fidel. They describe a life of poverty and >>> > > oppression >>> > > > that in their experience, was caused not by '*El Bloqueo'*, but by >>> the >>> > > > policies of Fidel's government. Dissent is punishable by death. The >>> > > average >>> > > > citizen of Cuba is not allowed a cell phone, but governmental >>> officials >>> > > are. >>> > > > The average citizen of Cuba is not allowed internet access, but >>> > > governmental >>> > > > officials are. Etc. Etc. Etc. Some of these things are beginning to >>> > > change >>> > > > now that Raoul is taking over day to day management of the country, >>> and I >>> > > > think you will find that *'El Bloqueo'* will be quick to go away >>> with >>> > > those >>> > > > changes. >>> > >>> > > > There has been a healthy commerce market in Cuba for this entire >>> time >>> > > > despite the blockade, if you were a member of power. German >>> tourists had >>> > > no >>> > > > problem at all bringing their money there to spend, savoring the >>> local * >>> > > > jineteras*, and throwing currency around freely. I know a half >>> dozen >>> > > people >>> > > > who can provide me with "Dominican" cigars, picked up in Havana and >>> > > routed >>> > > > through D.R. to be banded, avoiding the blockade. The Party lives >>> in >>> > > > comfort, and allows its citizens to starve, and blames it on the US >>> in >>> > > order >>> > > > to stir up anti-American sentiment. It doesn't work. The citizens, >>> for >>> > > the >>> > > > most part, know better, and still come here in droves. >>> > >>> > > > It's a shame you didn't make it down to Florida in your trip here. >>> > > *Havanita >>> > > > * would have provided you with an education from Cubans fresh off >>> the >>> > > tire. >>> > >>> > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 9:46 AM, Ian Pollard < >>> [email protected]> >>> > > wrote: >>> > >>> > > > > Chris, >>> > >>> > > > > I don't know that I'm using hyperbole, but surely it's rather >>> difficult >>> > > to >>> > > > > talk about Cuba and not be anti-American? I'm not defending acts >>> of >>> > > murder, >>> > > > > but America is deeply culpable for the mess Cuba is in. >>> > >>> > > > > Ian >>> > >>> > > > > 2009/8/20 Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> >>> > >>> > > > > That, and the fact that the current government there will shoot >>> their >>> > > whole >>> > > > >> family for political dissent. >>> > > > >> Let's not make it SOLELY anti-american hyperbole in your post, >>> eh, >>> > > Ian? >>> > >>> > > > >> On Thu, Aug 20, 2009 at 3:04 AM, Ian Pollard < >>> [email protected] >>> > > >wrote: >>> > >>> > > > >>> 2009/8/19 BB47 <[email protected]> >>> > >>> > > > >>>> Differences between people often come down to core >>> philosophical >>> > > > >>>> issues. Simple ideas with vast implications. These issues are >>> often >>> > > > >>>> ignored or not seen. Let me take the example of Cuba, just as >>> an >>> > > > >>>> illustration. They have free health care and free university >>> > > > >>>> education yet there are many of those people that decided to >>> risk >>> > > > >>>> their very LIVES on a piece of wood through shark infested >>> waters >>> > > to >>> > > > >>>> get here, where there is no government health care. >>> > >>> > > > >>> You love your strawmen, BB. :) Just to be clear on a point of >>> fact: >>> > > > >>> Cuban's are not risking their lives to escape free health care >>> and >>> > > education >>> > > > >>> because they reeeeally want to pay for these services. They >>> risk >>> > > their lives >>> > > > >>> to earn money for their families which is otherwise >>> unattainable >>> > > because of >>> > > > >>> the isolation caused by el bloqueo. >>> > >>> > > > >>> Ian- Hide quoted text - >>> > >>> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >>> > >>> > - Show quoted text - >>> >>> >> >> >> > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
