On 16 Sep, 08:01, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote:
> “Clearly that is your individual perception….” – SD
>
> True, and in fact I remain amazed. And, rather than answer your
> question directly, I will start at the beginning and address your
> original statement. ("...Individual perception does not change
> fact..." – SD)
>
> I could ask you a question about it like, what is a ‘fact’? Yet, here
> I will posit that any ‘fact’ that you present is based on your
> individual perception. Yes, even the one about the sun. Without the
> human perception of light, heat, spheres, fire, color, the cosmos
> etc., in other words what a sun is as well as how it appears to arise,
> cross the heavens and then hide beneath the earth, or, the concept of
> the earth rotating allowing the above appearances to occur, there
> would be no fact at all. Or, perhaps you would/could produce a fully
> objective being who could confirm one of the stories about light? Or
> better yet some sort of machine to measure such things, of course said
> machine could not be made by a human being nor be interpreted/read by
> a human being.
>
> And, yes, I know about some of the ‘rebuttals’ such as “If you don’t
> believe in the external world, why don’t you walk through walls?” or
> other such strange forms of ‘logic’.
>
> So, your assumption that anything is a ‘fact’ separate from human
> thought is the flaw…so any question beyond that such as your last one
> is based on an error.
>
If a fact is linked to human (or, indeed, any) acknowledgement
(outside of the One), would mean that the entire history of the Earth
could well have just 'popped into' existence by the creation of the
first man. Somehow, I rather think that dinosaurs and the like that,
are now, little more than oil slicks underground, existed in their own
time without human perception OF them. Nor did our discovery of their
oil slicks and/or bones and fossils, place them into history. To
think that human perception of data is what makes data 'real' (rather
than acknowledged) is absurd. But, of course, that's 'just my
opinion'. I blame German philosophers for most of that kind of
thinking and, to me, it's the height of human arrogance to think that
our conception/perception of anything is a required function of any
OTHER thing's existence. It reduces the Big Bang to the moment that
the first human 'discovered' the background radiation FROM it, rather
than the timing of the actual event. I'm afraid I'm in Slip's camp on
this. Reality does not depend on human recognition of it in ANY way,
rather, human recognition of anything is dependent upon the
conformation of the underlying reality.
> On Sep 15, 6:21 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Clearly that is your individual perception.
>
> > Perhaps you can demonstrate how a "fact" is changed by individual
> > perception/subjectivity.
>
> > On Sep 15, 8:12 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > "...Individual perception does not change fact..." - SD
>
> > > I find this an amazing declaration Slip!
>
> > > On Sep 15, 3:15 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > Haha! Yes Fran, but it is understood that the sun rises up from the
> > > > horizon from the human visual perspective, that is why we call it
> > > > "sunrise" and later in the day "sunset".
> > > > Secondly this is not debating expressions of sunrise or earth rotation
> > > > but about fact being distorted by subjectivity.
> > > > I can easily make my point using an example other than sunrise.
> > > > Individual perception does not change fact. Whatever fact you prefer
> > > > to use is your choice.
>
> > > > On Sep 15, 2:32 pm, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > On 15 Sep., 21:11, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > The FACT is, Lee, that the sun rises. That IS the fact.
>
> > > > > Ah, but is it, Slip? The fact is also that the sun does,not rise but
> > > > > rather that the earth turns. At least since Copernicus.
>
> > > > > Francis- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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