One man's propaganda is another man's unassailable truth. dj
On Tue, Sep 22, 2009 at 1:11 PM, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > “I think the history of leadership shows it is pathologically > abhorrent face Vam - but most terms are noble and ignoble. …The key to > living with more of the noble face of leadership starts in more > communication of opinion and removing one of the ignoble sides - that > of promoting false opinion and propaganda. …We need to recognise the > Doublespeak of easy sloganising in a path to demystifying social > cohesion….” – archy > > As strange as it may sound, I find this to point toward the very thing > that causes our suffering…thought itself!!! Yes, I let the cat out of > the bag at the beginning however, as Neil so clearly points out, our > TERMS belie the reality. Also, “false opinion and propaganda” are > things to eliminate. The same with “Doublespeak & sloganizing”… > beginning the long and arduous trail to our true nature, far from > common day intellection. As has been presented in Science magazine, > animals (those without our sense and use of language) have true > democracies…following the majority ‘rule’ with nary a thought. Again, > the strange aspect is that the aspect most of us consider our most > important and powerful trait, concepts and language, seems to be the > main offender. I posit that transcending the deification of > intellection IS the path towards our divine nature and the only ‘true’ > solution to the ‘problem’. > > > > > On Sep 22, 9:55 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> I think the history of leadership shows it is pathologically abhorrent >> face Vam - but most terms are noble and ignoble. Even when we all >> think current leadership is bad we can only (if lucky enough) vote in >> another one. This is a great survival context for leadership, if not >> for us. George Gallop thought his opinion polls would greatly >> strengthen democracy, but leadership has rather usurped them. We have >> the technology for more deliberative polling (I have an academic paper >> should anyone be interested) and have had a few experiments. The key >> to living with more of the noble face of leadership starts in more >> communication of opinion and removing one of the ignoble sides - that >> of promoting false opinion and propaganda. Deliberative Polling is >> just one idea - we could also move towards much more localised >> accounting within a system developed from it. All cultural systems of >> leadership I've seen rely on some kind of control of the leadership. >> I suspect now that leadership is everywhere it isn't needed, >> controlling us, broadly as an unfriendly parasite. We need decision- >> making in our hands, but even something as obvious as this comes with >> the knowledge the wrong form of this just slows everything to a >> trickle as most people can't see beyond their own immediate >> interests. We need to recognise the Doublespeak of easy sloganising >> in a path to demystifying social cohesion. I believe the spreadsheet >> could come to our aid here - as an example of technology enabling >> decisions in a deliberative context. I must say, old friend, that >> once I discovered what 'adult talk' to be, I have had little time for >> it! >> >> On 22 Sep, 16:35, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > " The leadership meme seems to support itself well in survival and we >> > are not addressing this well in our discourse." >> >> > This seeming support for leadership in your view is a stranger for me >> > here, Neil, considering how pathologically abhorrent an idea you have >> > consistently presented it as in your posts here in past. What >> > happened, in this late age ? >> >> > No, this is a genuine surprise I express. Especially since a ' >> > collective ' leadership is largely theoretical ... yes, Athens like ! >> >> > This is adult talk I am attempting. It seldom happens. So if doesn't >> > now, I wouldn't be surprised ! >> >> > On Sep 22, 6:27 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > Workers of the world were supposed to unite - sadly the employers >> > > did! On greed (somewhat tangentially), we are discovering links >> > > between emotions and how we come to 'define terms' in our arguments. >> > > Disgust has had a lot of attention in links to morality. Greed would >> > > seem to have some moderated use in putting things away for a rainy >> > > day. In terms of it leaving the hearts of 'people' (no doubt an >> > > unwanted PC point over Orn here!) I go for a democratic technology. >> > > Like Don I don't fear other peoples, though I'd move from dictators to >> > > 'hierarchies' - these (including ours) are now often 'false >> > > democracies'. For me, the answers lie in technology - though this >> > > cannot be the 'heartless form'. The leadership meme seems to support >> > > itself well in survival and we are not addressing this well in our >> > > discourse. >> >> > > On 22 Sep, 08:41, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > > “…Anyone notice certain harmonies in this stuff and the reaction of >> > > > Obama's modest national health plans? …” - archy >> >> > > > Yes, much of the same revision of history along with using propaganda >> > > > (lies) and fear tactics by those with power. Unfortunately, the ‘rest >> > > > of the story’ includes: >> >> > > > “…The Marian propagandists appealed to a yearning for peace and >> > > > stability. But a whole generation had grown up since Henry’s break >> > > > with Rome, and much of the Marian effort surely represents the >> > > > unseemly spectacle of men trying to catch the genie of free thought >> > > > and put it back in the bottle. Protestantism, certainly, was a >> > > > minority faith, but though the numbers who stood up to witness could >> > > > be counted, it was less easy to anticipate or evaluate the >> > > > undercurrent of strong feeling that showed itself on the execution >> > > > grounds. The advisers of Philip of Spain, Mary’s husband, grew >> > > > nervous; it was possible that public opinion would blame Philip’s >> > > > influence for the burnings, so perhaps, on pragmatic grounds, the >> > > > executions should be suspended, or held in secret? The imperial >> > > > ambassador told Philip that at the burning of John Rogers at >> > > > Smithfield in February 1555, ‘some of the onlookers wept, others >> > > > prayed to God to give him strength, perseverance and patience to bear >> > > > the pain and not to recant, others gathered the ashes and bones and >> > > > wrapped them up in paper to preserve them, yet others threatening the >> > > > bishops.’ The ambassador was afraid of popular revolt. It did not >> > > > happen, and there was, Duffy says, no loss of nerve on the part of >> > > > bishops, queen or the cardinal-archbishop. The regime had succeeded >> > > > with its chosen weapons of teaching, preaching and burning alive, and >> > > > by 1557 very few held out; most of the intransigents had gone into >> > > > exile or knuckled under. The parish constable of St Bride’s, Fleet >> > > > Street, once a strongly evangelical area, assured the authorities that >> > > > ‘if you say the Crowe is white, I will say so too.’…” >> >> > > > There followed a flu epidemic that took out the powerful and elite… >> > > > and, as condemning as it may be, I pray for a similar result in the >> > > > Colonies. Perhaps the fanatics will fall to the microbe. Perhaps a new >> > > > tea party will not be necessary to revolt against those who control >> > > > the economy. Perhaps corporations will regain their status of non- >> > > > anthropomorphism and no longer rule those condemned and chained to >> > > > supporting them. Perhaps greed will leave the hearts of men everywhere >> > > > and we will join hands and….oh, wait, ….never mind. >> >> > > > On Sep 21, 2:27 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > > > An anonymous pamphlet published in summer 1555 painted a terrifying >> > > > > picture of a Protestant England in which the fabric of society had >> > > > > been eroded, >> > > > > '... all good order broken, the magistrates contempned, and the >> > > > > people >> > > > > so farre divided that the father dread the childe, the marchaunt hys >> > > > > prentysce, the master hys man . . . Amitie and friendship was fled >> > > > > the >> > > > > realme, truth and trust was outtroden, al good maners and nurture in >> > > > > youth exiled, the very norishe of chastetee in maydens cast of >> > > > > cleane, >> > > > > so that what eche man liked and lusted, that he thought lawful...' >> >> > > > > This communistic free-for-all cannot have been what people remembered >> > > > > of Edward’s reign. Perhaps they thought it had all happened in the >> > > > > next parish, or just over the hill. This was what became of England >> > > > > in >> > > > > rebellion against Catholicism and accepting the word of priests like >> > > > > babes. A few Protestant worthies were put to the sword, and far more >> > > > > innocents, in an attempt at correction. >> >> > > > > Anyone notice certain harmonies in this stuff and the reaction of >> > > > > Obama's modest national health plans? The last line of the ancient >> > > > > text kills me - surely it cannot be that Catholic maydens were ever >> > > > > the epitome of chastetee, or there would never have been any practice >> > > > > for us Proddie lads until forced to settle down to the ice cold >> > > > > domesticity of one of our own! I can only hope that Che Obama gets >> > > > > on >> > > > > with collapsing the fabric of US society by letting everyone have >> > > > > health insurance! Marxism works in mysterious ways indeed!- Hide >> > > > > quoted text - >> >> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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