Citizens can be content in empires and monarchies, as well, if there is peace and security, fair taxation and laws, accepted social strata and freedoms, etc. A vote doesn't mean much if you are saddled with a corrupt government/politicians and call it a democracy, republic or the city council. And if nations decide to defeat trade rivals by unfair practices, they are probably asking for wars/war monger dictators who appeal to the basic needs/wants/resentments of their own citizens.
On Oct 1, 10:20 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > Exactly the issue Neil…’we’ cause the problems and on many different > levels. However, I’m not sure it is due to lack of democracy…not > saying this is not the cause, just not sure. > > The ‘old’ unions had their function and arose in a different time > based upon specific needs. All such things change. And is it really a > mystery as to why specific characters arose to power? I’m not sure > this is a puzzle at all. > > On Oct 1, 3:44 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Indeed Orn - there is definitely a baby in this bathwater. I would > > hope never again to experience the 'Zil Chill' of the former Soviet > > states or the grim feelings I've had elsewhere away from these shores, > > though we need to understand we cause many of these problems by > > failing to achieve more democracy. I'm an old union man, but don't > > want to see a return of the old unions - however, a new form of > > insured representation for all is possible. If 'democracy' could > > produce Hitler we need to know why and how - even Mugabe was once > > voted in for real. > > > On 1 Oct, 17:41, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > As critical as I am of the ‘democracy’ that I know, mostly with the > > > intention of retaining and/or improving it, I am quite thankful that > > > this lifetime was not spent in Cambodia or other such countries. The > > > current experiment is preferable when a comparison to what is is > > > conducted. And, when compared to the codified words “…in order to form > > > a more perfect union…”, the ongoing process is seen and must be > > > recognized. I do. > > > > On Oct 1, 9:26 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > We like to think of the UK Parliament as the 'mother of parliaments'. > > > > We are much the same in sport - always resting on our history of > > > > inventing the games others now beat us at! Most civilised countries > > > > seem more democratic than Britain, but I only ever visit or live in > > > > them as an alien. In France, in the late 70's I discovered my > > > > illusions were just that as police and troops laid waste to a shanty > > > > town with bulldozers and I found out how casual labour was treated (I > > > > was undercover on a drugs bust). The US has always seemed so much > > > > more democratic with all kinds of elections we don't have - yet it > > > > generally is not. > > > > I actually find a lot not to like about democracy - the Athenian one > > > > had a privileged Demos and practised ethnic cleansing of an economic > > > > kind we see in Domesday Books all over the world - and there are > > > > obvious problems such as asking the uninformed to make decisions. > > > > This latter is a key problem as it lets in charisma and all the old > > > > techniques of persuasion because we can always rely on the majority > > > > not to be able to follow the argument. The Germans were probably the > > > > best educated, most scientific, most cultured people on the planet > > > > when they voted for Hitler and the Nazis. Hitler may have seized > > > > power illegitimately, but Germans voted for him in droves in elections > > > > around the country. Other countries had their own Nazis in > > > > considerable numbers. We will vote for any dross - this should make > > > > us rethink democracy. > > > > > On 1 Oct, 17:00, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Sadly, I couldn’t get tickets to hear Noam here in Portland this > > > > > week. > > > > > > And, I have found that he gets much of what you say we should fear > > > > > right Neil. He just isn’t quite as charismatic in his brand of > > > > > ‘evangelism’ as some though. > > > > > > I fear we in the Colonies are at the cusp of yet another Civil War… > > > > > only not so ‘Civil’. The ‘best’ political action my disillusioned > > > > > brain can imagine at this time, other than a true ‘new’ tea party, is > > > > > to fulfill the ancient cry of ‘Throw the bums out!’. I was skeptical > > > > > about the actuality of the BO regime from the start and now that the > > > > > ‘party in power’ has vetoed health care for we the people and has > > > > > reinvested in the demonstrated failed practice of sexual abstinence as > > > > > well as a continued hegemony, it really is time for change. Eisenhower > > > > > was much wiser. > > > > > > As a sort of Paul Revere of the day, I call upon ‘we the people’ to > > > > > see that every political person in power is replaced...with 3rd party > > > > > individuals if possible. There is no other way to gain political > > > > > attention today. This even though I fully embrace Noam’s notion of > > > > > Anarchy: > > > > > > “…Anarchism, in my view, is an expression of the idea that the burden > > > > > of proof is always on those who argue that authority and domination > > > > > are necessary. They have to demonstrate, with powerful argument, that > > > > > that conclusion is correct. If they cannot, then the institutions they > > > > > defend should be considered illegitimate. How one should react to > > > > > illegitimate authority depends on circumstances and conditions: there > > > > > are no formulas. …” – Chomsky > > > > > > (more at:http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/19961223.htm) > > > > > > On Oct 1, 7:24 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Chomsky has been right for many years. The academy in which he and > > > > > > others flourished is long gone - we are all, at our relative levels > > > > > > of > > > > > > ability in the margins as resistance fighters. I would put the > > > > > > argument personally given limited space. An old guy (undoubtedly a > > > > > > 'comrade') turned up at our door a couple of days ago. Sue and I > > > > > > are > > > > > > died in the wool lefties and he was asking if Labour could rely on > > > > > > our > > > > > > vote. I didn't want to upset the old chap. Our MP isn't fit for > > > > > > the > > > > > > job, our councillors useless, almost childish. Britain is broken - > > > > > > there is no system worth voting in. We'd like to be able to vote > > > > > > in a > > > > > > space for radical reform for the establishment of actual democracy. > > > > > > We're nearly 60 years old, let down by false promises and the > > > > > > default > > > > > > return of business as usual however we vote. We are at war and > > > > > > can't > > > > > > even vote against this. Etc. etc. ... even the old 'sense' of a > > > > > > pragmatic choice in a dirty world doesn't work on us - this was part > > > > > > of the broken promises. It's conference season here, with a general > > > > > > election coming in 6 months. The old dross is rolled out by all. > > > > > > The > > > > > > Prime Minister's wife makes a speech blessing him as 'her hero' - > > > > > > the > > > > > > only indication I can draw from this is the public is still regarded > > > > > > as gullible and pathetic. > > > > > > > The job is one of anarchy - the tearing down of the lies on 'free > > > > > > trade'. 'democracy' and so on - but the aim is not anarchy (strictly > > > > > > meaning leaderlessness) - it's about new construction free of the > > > > > > chronic fears we have about each other. What Chomsky isn't good on > > > > > > is > > > > > > recognising much we should be fearful of - crap worlds of the veil, > > > > > > 'dumb idealism', the ease in which tyranny can establish unless we > > > > > > get > > > > > > armed services and policing right, 'dumb meritocracy' and so on. > > > > > > I saw the NATO speech on Afghanistan today - the general could > > > > > > almost > > > > > > have been a sociologist in explaining how 'our' (not in my name) > > > > > > actions rub against Afghan culture. Building a well in the wrong > > > > > > place with the wrong labour leads to changes in the balance of > > > > > > power, > > > > > > killing two insurgents may lead to another ten joining up for > > > > > > revenge. Is any of this surprising when our own legal systems > > > > > > favour > > > > > > the rich, exclude most of us from justice and can't even free > > > > > > disabled > > > > > > people from local 'terrorists' who bully them to suicide? Much of > > > > > > this was discussed by Hobbes and Thomas Moore. How many coups start > > > > > > as temporary takeovers that will bring democracy (the dictatorship > > > > > > of > > > > > > the proletariat syndrome)? How did 'democracy' as we might > > > > > > grudgingly > > > > > > admit to take root? Not by watching television and playing video > > > > > > games. > > > > > > > If I finish my books and they sell well, what will I do? Get > > > > > > myself a > > > > > > 'stable of broads', flash cars and learn to fiddle in the comfort of > > > > > > watching the world burn from my comfort away from it all? I want > > > > > > none > > > > > > of such 'success' - though know its temptations. Many live in > > > > > > conditions where much more minor temptations can be used to effect > > > > > > 'revolution'. I would rather die than be the white man on the beach > > > > > > in Kenya forking out a few dollars for sex with a local child. In > > > > > > fact, I don't have to travel far to discover this 'down the road', > > > > > > or > > > > > > in the actions of those defending Polanski. Polanski gets a bevy of > > > > > > lawyers, the kid he raped at 13 did not get help when she needed it. > > > > > > > Democracy is not simply about empowering all - it requires a > > > > > > wrecking > > > > > > of the illegitimate use of authority whilst building means to our > > > > > > security itself properly amenable to law and due process. I have > > > > > > seen > > > > > > 'hunger thieves' too often and our systems render us all 'hungry' > > > > > > for > > > > > > the wrong things - there is a need to work out how to base Chomsky > > > > > > on > > > > > > what humans currently are - in order that we might be something very > > > > > > different. > > > > > > > On 1 Oct, 14:06, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > This latest article from Noam Chomsky - Crisis and Hope: Theirs > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > Ours > > > > > > > > Of all of the crises that afflict us, the growing democratic > > > > > > > deficit > > > > > > > may be the most severe. > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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