I agree with you Francis, There is no realistic way that I could ever change the world. Here at ME there is a chance for me to share my views of the world and spirituality. At the same time I am nourished by the views of others helping me grow in my on going travels through this realm of life. Thank you to everyone for your tolerating this old man and my views, as well as sharing yours with me. Allan
On Fri, Oct 2, 2009 at 11:41 PM, frantheman <[email protected]>wrote: > > I don't have any expectations we are going to change the world here > ME. I don't think that's why most of us are here anyway. In my own > life, I find myself more and more in tune with Candide where he > replies to Pangloss's final inanity about the best of all possible > worlds with the comment, "Il faut cultiver notre jardin." My > participation here is just one of the plants in my own garden, which > has changed pretty drastically in the past couple of years; some of > the major plants dying off quite unexpectedly, others growing, > flourishing and producing all kinds of unexpected, wonderful beauty. > That's the thing about gardens; with the exception of the depths of > winter, there're always things to do and, depending on the season, > different things which claim their own priorities in terms of time and > care. And they're always about life and growth, cycles of birth and > decay, becoming and withering. > > Neil wonders about the amount of "practical significance between any > of us." I don't think this is so important. Maybe it's enough that - > in this rather rarified virtual environment - we occasionally provide > one another with a little inspiration, an idea, a thought which helps > the one or other a bit farther on his/her own journey. When thinking > in such directions the hasidic comment about the man who, in saving > one life, saves the whole world often comes to my mind. > > There is, of course, a lot of dilettantism about much of what we do > here - but this is probably inevitable, given the open, eclectic > nature of the site. With regards to practical politics and political > themes, many of us are fastidious - with very good reasons. Most of > us, I suspect, have known people who decided - often for the best of > reasons - to become more directly involved in the political process > and have frequently observed their idealism and moral integrity > steadily and inexorably melt away under the grind of neccessary > compromise, the pressure of party conformism and the need to actually > achieve power within our systems in order to effect change. A few even > manage to retain a core of basic decency in the process, although you > often have to dig deep to find it. But then, they were the ones > prepared to get their hands dirty - what a shame that dirt is also so > corrosive. Nevertheless, we should take care not to simply finish up > like Statler and Waldorf in the box seats at the Muppet Show. > > One doesn't need to agree with Chomsky on everything to find him an > inspiring character. Despite being ignored, derided and belittled by > the mainstream, he still keeps slogging away. There are many other > such characters in private and public life all over the world. Here in > Germany, the Green parliamentarian, Hans-Christian Ströbele, is one > such (in my opinion anyway - like to comment on that, Gabby?). Aung > San Suu Kyi is another. > > Of course there are better ways to do things than the ways they are > done worldwide at the moment. This will always be the case. But, to go > back to my original image, maybe all each of us can do is to go on > cultivating our gardens and, occasionally, invite others to see and > enjoy some of the beautiful things we have helped - a little - to grow > there. Who knows when someone - maybe even a visitor here - will take > one of our flowers to market to create wonder and delight in a wider > world? > > Francis > > On 2 Okt., 18:01, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > I think we may well get off on the wrong foot in our discussions. I > > don't mean by this that anyone's opinion is unwelcome or deluded, but > > I have a suspicion our general talents might produce something > > different and better. It's a matter of some regret that we aren't all > > neighbours working to some common purpose (in our diversity of course > > Molly) beyond our electronic connections. I don't quite mean that we > > should up sticks to form a collective in Chile (perhaps near the town > > of some of Orn's spiritual inspiration), though I must say I wouldn't > > discount this from dreams. I wonder whether we could achieve more in > > our discursive arguments, though I'm conscious trying this might spoil > > what we have. It was nice to be invited for a curry down at Lee's the > > other week, though the minicab return from Manchester to London might > > have made this the most expensive meal I have ever eaten! When I have > > a new thrundge-grommet for the jump jet perhaps I could nip for rather > > different forms of spiritual cleansing chez Molly and Jenkins! > > I've been reading some comparative philosophy of late and re- > > discovering there is a world one can find our diverse voices being > > subject to scrutiny in. What I sense 'wrong-foot-wise' is the obvious > > fact we are talking, teasing, chattering, perhaps laudably without too > > much 'intent', yet somehow a purpose we all share about 'real change' > > is somehow deferred and the point we all share is somehow 'elided'. I > > think I may refer to this as 'secular democracy' and as Orn says > > above, or at least gestures at in dog-tail wagging, this cannot be the > > right term. I remember some years back that a group formed calling > > themselves 'New Paradigm Researchers'. Their manifesto was truly > > awful calling everyone 'co-researchers' (meaning 'patronised mugs') > > and calling on us all to allow the world to directly impinge on our > > unconscious, apparently not realising this was a very perverse form of > > positivism with the mind redefined. It was all upper-class twittery. > > With this rather deflationary proviso, I do wonder about the extent to > > which we are following a rather scientific agenda in terms of trying > > to exclude much of the world in order to have the space to talk at all > > and it might be interesting to work out what we are excluding (perhaps > > simply by default) and how this defines us. > > One can read Chomsky, Rawls, Habermas and on (most don't) and find > > elaborate expositions of a 'clean politics', but none of this 'cleans' > > the human nature defaults from the 'dirty world'. One can find public > > choice theories that accept selfish human nature and seek to marry > > individual selfish decisions with public interest. Most of us will > > have seen what happens to 'integrity' once guns are pointed in its > > direction (or threats from bosses etc.) and I guess we have some shaky > > ideas about 'deep politics' too. One might wonder how our 'flowers' > > can bloom out there in the 'world of weeds'! We might just understand > > more of what is going on by reflection on what we think stops our > > ideas from working - I sense our very thinking is constrained by > > having to fight an enemy that is unseen in plain view sapping our > > energies and courage. For all our diversity, I would suggest there is > > very little of practical significance between any of us - we want > > democracy in a fairer form, would want its Guardians under democratic > > control (not like Bush, Blair or the Mad Dinner Jacket) in public > > scrutiny and don't want to become the next leaders to be corrupted by > > power ourselves or to elect the next Mugabe. Our ideas might turn out > > to be so simple that it would only be possible to assume something > > complex, nasty and mystified prevents them being theories-in-action. > > > > On 2 Oct, 14:16, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Democracy clearly isn't just about voting occasionally for parties we > > > probably think are corrupt. In the UK we have slipped to the cynical > > > position that all candidates are broadly the same, self-interested > > > jobsworths - I used to hear this regularly in years gone by and think > > > it was a very unworthy position - now I believe it is the sensible > > > position, though only if we genuinely want to change the system. The > > > changes needed are 'big' but not impossible or ideological. It's > > > obvious our main political parties do not want to take part and are > > > really only interested in 'business as usual'. > > > Our government is focused in Westminster and one has to wonder why > > > this has to be the case given electronic communication. There is no > > > real way to monitor what our MPs do or to get rid of useless or > > > corrupt ones. My guess is that most of them are both and that this is > > > inevitable because of the party system, but I would stress I don't > > > know this as the information for informed decisions is not generally > > > available to us - we have to make 'guesses'. The media is little > > > better than an adjunct to 'business as usual' rather than a fourth > > > estate. > > > > > I want to see a smaller State. We have massively expanded the public > > > sector - so much so it is impossible to gauge the real size as we have > > > all kinds of off-balance sheet finance initiatives, QUANGOs and > > > charities providing basic services. Sweeping this away would almost > > > certainly cost 2 million jobs and I have no belief private sector > > > entrepreneurialism can fill the gap - this kind of economics has long > > > been a lame duck itself. My guess is that 6 million people are > > > already unemployed and many others under-employed. There are massive > > > deficits in our pensions and welfare and at the same time we have a > > > very large body of jobsworths on very high salaries adding to the > > > pension burden. The answers are miles away from any proper public > > > dialogue. > > > > > On 2 Oct, 13:16, Molly Brogan <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Great point, rigsy. The structure of government and function of > > > > leadership of any group should be determined by its developmental > > > > needs. I think what Chomsky is calling for is more purity in > > > > democracy, less corruption, more voice for citizens and > organizational > > > > opportunities for subgroups. Democracy in the true spirit of > > > > democracy. The challenge, is to create a form that will serve the > top > > > > and bottom levels of development for citizens, those self motivating > > > > and sustaining, those not. Chomsky's view isn't new but it is > > > > timely. The American transcendental poets each spoke of > > > > individuality, freedom, citizenship and the mandates of democracy and > > > > were a big influence on the politics of their time. > > > > > > Souvenirs of Democracy. by Walt Whitman > > > > THE business man, the acquirer vast, > > > > After assiduous years, surveying results, preparing for departure, > > > > Devises houses and lands to his children—bequeaths stocks, > goods—funds > > > > for a > > > > school or hospital, > > > > Leaves money to certain companions to buy tokens, souvenirs of gems > > > > and gold; > > > > Parceling out with care—And then, to prevent all cavil, > > > > His name to his testament formally signs. > > > > > > But I, my life surveying, > > > > With nothing to show, to devise, from its idle years, > > > > Nor houses, nor lands—nor tokens of gems or gold for my friends, > > > > Only these Souvenirs of Democracy—In them—in all my songs—behind me > > > > leaving, > > > > To You, who ever you are, (bathing, leavening this leaf especially > > > > with my > > > > breath—pressing > > > > on it a moment with my own hands; > > > > —Here! feel how the pulse beats in my wrists!—how my heart’s-blood is > > > > swelling, > > > > contracting!) > > > > I will You, in all, Myself, with promise to never desert you, > > > > To which I sign my name. > > > > > > On Oct 2, 12:00 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Citizens can be content in empires and monarchies, as well, if > there > > > > > is peace and security, fair taxation and laws, accepted social > strata > > > > > and freedoms, etc. A vote doesn't mean much if you are saddled with > a > > > > > corrupt government/politicians and call it a democracy, republic or > > > > > the city council. And if nations decide to defeat trade rivals by > > > > > unfair practices, they are probably asking for wars/war monger > > > > > dictators who appeal to the basic needs/wants/resentments of their > own > > > > > citizens. > > > > > > > On Oct 1, 10:20 pm, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > Exactly the issue Neil…’we’ cause the problems and on many > different > > > > > > levels. However, I’m not sure it is due to lack of democracy…not > > > > > > saying this is not the cause, just not sure. > > > > > > > > The ‘old’ unions had their function and arose in a different time > > > > > > based upon specific needs. All such things change. And is it > really a > > > > > > mystery as to why specific characters arose to power? I’m not > sure > > > > > > this is a puzzle at all. > > > > > > > > On Oct 1, 3:44 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Indeed Orn - there is definitely a baby in this bathwater. I > would > > > > > > > hope never again to experience the 'Zil Chill' of the former > Soviet > > > > > > > states or the grim feelings I've had elsewhere away from these > shores, > > > > > > > though we need to understand we cause many of these problems by > > > > > > > failing to achieve more democracy. I'm an old union man, but > don't > > > > > > > want to see a return of the old unions - however, a new form of > > > > > > > insured representation for all is possible. If 'democracy' > could > > > > > > > produce Hitler we need to know why and how - even Mugabe was > once > > > > > > > voted in for real. > > > > > > > > > On 1 Oct, 17:41, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > As critical as I am of the ‘democracy’ that I know, mostly > with the > > > > > > > > intention of retaining and/or improving it, I am quite > thankful that > > > > > > > > this lifetime was not spent in Cambodia or other such > countries. The > > > > ... > > > > Erfahren Sie mehr » > > > -- ( ) I_D Allan --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
