I couldn't watch Persepolis because of my involvement in the Middle East - tears. I hope I did manage to bungle my way through to a few good things there, but I have no doubt there is much worse going on in the region than we manage 'locally' (not so sure once foreign policy is operating or 'red rubber' commerce involved). Some debates I was involved in were televised over there - rather interesting given what happens with air-time over here. There is a lot of interest in alternatives to 'grasping capitalism' and how what freedoms we have may have really arisen. The Holocaust denial stuff interests me because it is so different from the drivel in the West. There is no denial that millions were killed, just that there is no real special case. A variation is Turkey's denial of Armenian genocide - they don't deny the deaths, just the organisation of them and the lack of any special peculiarity given commonplace mass killings at the time and before. 2.5 million starved to death in Bengal in WW2 and we make no special mention of it. The 'Total Solution' was hardly new - Moses is a similar war criminal in Numbers 31 - let alone the notion of killing all two year olds etc. France and Britain left masses of troops stationed in the Middle east after WW2 - we had 80,000 there 10 years after the end of the war - at a time when the country was broke. We can argue WW1 started with a British invasion of Iraq in 1913. The area has been constantly colonised by the West or the Ottomans. It would take several books 'not to do justice' to the complexity. Arabs and non-Jewish Semites tend to tell a story of the Jews occupying their homes - asking what you would do in similar circumstances. I usually respond by saying we should have given Ireland to the Jews and Skye to the Hong Kong Chinese. Passions run too high for the serious points ever to be made. At bottom, I suspect Israel is a US pawn and the historical arguments pathetic blather. If the poles melt are we lowlanders likely to accept the inalienable rights of those on higher land? I actually live 200 feet higher than the Fylde coast that would be lost near here. Much of the habitable Middle East would be lost. No bloody refuge is having my spare bedroom!!! War is, as you say Orn, in the firmament. 40,000 more troops for Afghanistan? Now where have we heard that recently? This is a country with a GDP less than 40,000 troops would cost. What is there? I wouldn't presume to present argument on this dreadful situation. It's not our right - we need genuine opinion from the ground and a revelation of true history to prevent the idiot Crusader-Jihadi position. We hung Saddam but not Mugabe - so let's not listen to moral dross. This situation is typical of many where those in power are happy no argumentative resolution is possible - they ensure that. We should be asking why, not being partisans on doomed 'rights' positions. There is a truth here that could be told, there is a chance of communication between peoples not leaders and so on. My suspicions are that our foreign policy people are smart enough to know how to manipulate Dinner Jacket and that he is 'smart' enough to fall for it. We have always prevented the rise of tolerant rule by a middle class (much as ours) in Iran and Iraq, probably encouraged the lunatic Iran-Iraq war (what happened to the Iranian Navy?) - it goes on. It should be blatantly obvious by now that traditional argument on all this is biased beyond any use other than to keep the 'argument' going and prevent resolution. Given we are top dog, I can only suspect we want things this way. In dark rooms somewhere, 'we' are thinking of nuking Iran, Pakistan and Somalia (maybe Saudi too) to ensure they can't 'surprise' us with their nuclear piles and maybe working with India to 'secure peace'. I don't have access to what is really going on, but am sure Britain and France meant to colonise the Middle East back in 1956 and were only usurped as usurpers by US foreign policy expertise and financial clout. In 1861 imperialist Europe (including Russia) met in Berlin to cut up Africa and try to organise an invasion of the USA - fortunately 'we' were too stupid to see the US threat and didn't wade in. Since then, the US has taken over. Who knows, but I'm sure we are not the good guys of the Magnificent Seven.
On 3 Oct, 07:58, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > “…She gets the feeling Israeli politics is too corrupt for much decent > to happen. …” – archy > > I met a visiting elder couple from Israel a couple of years ago at a > B&B on the Pacific coast. Over breakfast, even though when asked he > wouldn’t answer, my guess is that he had been Mossad. He had lived > long enough to see what at the time was a very fanatical leadership as > a true threat to what I can only guess was his beloved homeland and > people. I saw the faint start of tears arise as we gingerly discussed > the politics and associated results. During most of my life, I had > manifested the result of drinking the Kool-Aid about the primacy and > righteousness of Israel. This was necessary to manufacture the consent > for the support of a ‘new’ country after 1948 and in this context is > understandable. > > “…we rarely turn our own thinking about 'Western madness' into > wondering how we look to 'loonies' like Gaddafi…” – archy > > Long ago in ‘86, around the time the US bombed Libya, I had to > empathize with Muammar to some extent when he lost his Hannah to the > US attack. Other civilians were murdered along with numerous > governmental members. Feeling the impotence to only be able to > retaliate with firing two Scuds into the sea must have been painful. > WWBD? [What Would Bush Do?] > > “…I think the whole area is closer to war than we are admitting in > public and it's us looking to spark it off….” Archy > > Again, I am ignorant yet would not be at all surprised at all if this > were the case. As to being close to war, this seems to be an > omnipresent condition, all prophesies aside. > > “…I fancy we are pushing the Mad Dinner Jacket (I've been at a > conference with him in attendance and he was very civilised, very > capable in argument - especially in explaining the holocaust denial as > something very different from our neo-Nazi stuff) into an extreme > position hoping he will allow some > kind of strike to protect himself and the establishment from the > moderate majority in Iran…” – archy > > Yes, I have heard him on a couple of occasions show what many would > call healthy skepticism when it came to such things. His relativism is > all too common today and the result is predictable. [“Iran is a > cognate of Aryan, and means “Land of the Aryans”.”] On the other hand, > Chomsky has quite eloquently supplied his staunch support of the major > holocaust denier’s right to do so. Universality as a principle holds > no favorites. Back to the suit, being the leader of a country which > has been attacked and overthrown, almost twice by the US, resulting in > a long imposition of a Shaw would color one’s views. The countless > years of all out war with its neighbors, and extreme death toll…also, > stuck between a supreme Ayatollah and a polarized, albeit primarily > progressive, populous sprinkled with fanatics could drive many a > person to madness…an analogy might be the US itself. > > I have a younger couple who are friends, the female of which lived in > Iran for most of her life. Her stories make it clear that as many > problems as we have as a society, the struggles there are greater. I > find the movie ‘Persepolis’ to be representative in mood, based on > this woman’s stories. Quite dark. > > Another Iranian friend and his parents moved here years ago…the > parents were Zorastrians, father ex-military… and the stories about > religious persecution there are understated if anything. I’m not sure, > but I believe the average age in Iran is very low…and creates another > problem. > > On Oct 2, 6:21 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Our eldest daughter is over there. She gets the feeling Israeli > > politics is too corrupt for much decent to happen. I haven't been for > > years - back then there was a socialist ethos I rather liked. I have > > a general thought about situations like this - we rarely turn our own > > thinking about 'Western madness' into wondering how we look to > > 'loonies' like Gaddafi. I think the whole area is closer to war than > > we are admitting in public and it's us looking to spark it off. The > > talk of peace looks very shaky against the realities, whatever they > > are. Orn's transcript almost shows a man to believe in given what we > > know about the UN - but what can we know. I fancy we are pushing the > > Mad Dinner Jacket (I've been at a conference with him in attendance > > and he was very civilised, very capable in argument - especially in > > explaining the holocaust denial as something very different from our > > neo-Nazi stuff) into an extreme position hoping he will allow some > > kind of strike to protect himself and the establishment from the > > moderate majority in Iran. I hope I'm wrong, but we seem to do almost > > anything rather than encourage democracy out there. If the area had > > any sense it would give itself up to Swiss colonisation, but then so > > would we if we had any sense! > > > On 30 Sep, 23:42, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Fran, while I watched his presentation to the UN and did find it a > > > little rambling, the specific I was referring to was his interview > > > with Larry King, on TV, which I watched too. I did not find that > > > bizarre in the least. Well, good ‘ol Larry is a hoot and has aspects > > > of bizarreness! ;-) To be fair, you might want to watch a video rather > > > than just read what occurred, although I couldn’t find a copy of the > > > video interview. Strange. Here is the transcript: > > > >http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0909/28/lkl.01.html > > > > On Sep 30, 8:27 am, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > A cantonal solution - perhaps something along the Swiss model, but > > > > with even less centralisation - has been frequently suggested, > > > > possibly with an independent canton of Jerusalem serving also as > > > > capital of the Confederation. Internationally guaranteed and perhaps, > > > > in the initial stages, with some kind of international policing > > > > component. Looked at from outside, "objectively", such a structure > > > > seems to offers much of the freedoms and safeguards demanded by both > > > > sides. In this sense, Gadaffi's suggestion does have merit (even if > > > > the circumstances were somewhat > > > > bizarrehttp://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article68...). > > > > > However, the issues involved are not approached in the area primarily > > > > from a rational point of view. > > > > > Francis > > > > > On 30 Sep., 09:18, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > fran, yes....however, due to the attitudes here in the states, I > > > > > wanted the idea to be anonymous...still interested in what others > > > > > think of the idea. > > > > > > On Sep 29, 11:57 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > I think one country would result in a genocide of the > > > > > > Palestinians,,, Israel > > > > > > is trying to kill as may as they can with every thing they do or > > > > > > that seems > > > > > > seems that way.. what would be more interesting is have the UN > > > > > > define the > > > > > > borders as they did in 1948 making one part Palestine and and the > > > > > > other part > > > > > > Israel.. and anyone living in Palestine territory automaticly would > > > > > > fall > > > > > > under Palestine law and Israel should have no input.. > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:28 AM, ornamentalmind > > > > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > > Yesterday, a world leader suggested uniting Israel and Palestine > > > > > > > into > > > > > > > one country, Israetine. He said that “…: That is the historic > > > > > > > solution, a peaceful one, a peaceful solution. All other efforts > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > fail. This solution will succeed only. Not adopting this solution > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > lead to great losses on both parties...” > > > > > > > > What do YOU think? > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > ( > > > > > > ) > > > > > > I_D Allan- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
