I too cried during much of the movie...
On Oct 3, 5:58 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote:
> Persepolis is a brilliant movie, and for anyone interested in the realities
> of Iran from a citizen (and now ex-pat)'s view, it's an excellent primer. I
> highly recommend it.
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 7:06 AM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I couldn't watch Persepolis because of my involvement in the Middle
> > East - tears. I hope I did manage to bungle my way through to a few
> > good things there, but I have no doubt there is much worse going on in
> > the region than we manage 'locally' (not so sure once foreign policy
> > is operating or 'red rubber' commerce involved). Some debates I was
> > involved in were televised over there - rather interesting given what
> > happens with air-time over here. There is a lot of interest in
> > alternatives to 'grasping capitalism' and how what freedoms we have
> > may have really arisen. The Holocaust denial stuff interests me
> > because it is so different from the drivel in the West. There is no
> > denial that millions were killed, just that there is no real special
> > case. A variation is Turkey's denial of Armenian genocide - they
> > don't deny the deaths, just the organisation of them and the lack of
> > any special peculiarity given commonplace mass killings at the time
> > and before. 2.5 million starved to death in Bengal in WW2 and we make
> > no special mention of it. The 'Total Solution' was hardly new - Moses
> > is a similar war criminal in Numbers 31 - let alone the notion of
> > killing all two year olds etc.
> > France and Britain left masses of troops stationed in the Middle east
> > after WW2 - we had 80,000 there 10 years after the end of the war - at
> > a time when the country was broke. We can argue WW1 started with a
> > British invasion of Iraq in 1913. The area has been constantly
> > colonised by the West or the Ottomans. It would take several books
> > 'not to do justice' to the complexity. Arabs and non-Jewish Semites
> > tend to tell a story of the Jews occupying their homes - asking what
> > you would do in similar circumstances. I usually respond by saying we
> > should have given Ireland to the Jews and Skye to the Hong Kong
> > Chinese. Passions run too high for the serious points ever to be
> > made. At bottom, I suspect Israel is a US pawn and the historical
> > arguments pathetic blather. If the poles melt are we lowlanders
> > likely to accept the inalienable rights of those on higher land? I
> > actually live 200 feet higher than the Fylde coast that would be lost
> > near here. Much of the habitable Middle East would be lost. No
> > bloody refuge is having my spare bedroom!!!
> > War is, as you say Orn, in the firmament. 40,000 more troops for
> > Afghanistan? Now where have we heard that recently? This is a
> > country with a GDP less than 40,000 troops would cost. What is there?
> > I wouldn't presume to present argument on this dreadful situation.
> > It's not our right - we need genuine opinion from the ground and a
> > revelation of true history to prevent the idiot Crusader-Jihadi
> > position. We hung Saddam but not Mugabe - so let's not listen to
> > moral dross. This situation is typical of many where those in power
> > are happy no argumentative resolution is possible - they ensure that.
> > We should be asking why, not being partisans on doomed 'rights'
> > positions. There is a truth here that could be told, there is a
> > chance of communication between peoples not leaders and so on.
> > My suspicions are that our foreign policy people are smart enough to
> > know how to manipulate Dinner Jacket and that he is 'smart' enough to
> > fall for it. We have always prevented the rise of tolerant rule by a
> > middle class (much as ours) in Iran and Iraq, probably encouraged the
> > lunatic Iran-Iraq war (what happened to the Iranian Navy?) - it goes
> > on. It should be blatantly obvious by now that traditional argument
> > on all this is biased beyond any use other than to keep the 'argument'
> > going and prevent resolution. Given we are top dog, I can only
> > suspect we want things this way. In dark rooms somewhere, 'we' are
> > thinking of nuking Iran, Pakistan and Somalia (maybe Saudi too) to
> > ensure they can't 'surprise' us with their nuclear piles and maybe
> > working with India to 'secure peace'. I don't have access to what is
> > really going on, but am sure Britain and France meant to colonise the
> > Middle East back in 1956 and were only usurped as usurpers by US
> > foreign policy expertise and financial clout. In 1861 imperialist
> > Europe (including Russia) met in Berlin to cut up Africa and try to
> > organise an invasion of the USA - fortunately 'we' were too stupid to
> > see the US threat and didn't wade in. Since then, the US has taken
> > over. Who knows, but I'm sure we are not the good guys of the
> > Magnificent Seven.
>
> > On 3 Oct, 07:58, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > “…She gets the feeling Israeli politics is too corrupt for much decent
> > > to happen. …” – archy
>
> > > I met a visiting elder couple from Israel a couple of years ago at a
> > > B&B on the Pacific coast. Over breakfast, even though when asked he
> > > wouldn’t answer, my guess is that he had been Mossad. He had lived
> > > long enough to see what at the time was a very fanatical leadership as
> > > a true threat to what I can only guess was his beloved homeland and
> > > people. I saw the faint start of tears arise as we gingerly discussed
> > > the politics and associated results. During most of my life, I had
> > > manifested the result of drinking the Kool-Aid about the primacy and
> > > righteousness of Israel. This was necessary to manufacture the consent
> > > for the support of a ‘new’ country after 1948 and in this context is
> > > understandable.
>
> > > “…we rarely turn our own thinking about 'Western madness' into
> > > wondering how we look to 'loonies' like Gaddafi…” – archy
>
> > > Long ago in ‘86, around the time the US bombed Libya, I had to
> > > empathize with Muammar to some extent when he lost his Hannah to the
> > > US attack. Other civilians were murdered along with numerous
> > > governmental members. Feeling the impotence to only be able to
> > > retaliate with firing two Scuds into the sea must have been painful.
> > > WWBD? [What Would Bush Do?]
>
> > > “…I think the whole area is closer to war than we are admitting in
> > > public and it's us looking to spark it off….” Archy
>
> > > Again, I am ignorant yet would not be at all surprised at all if this
> > > were the case. As to being close to war, this seems to be an
> > > omnipresent condition, all prophesies aside.
>
> > > “…I fancy we are pushing the Mad Dinner Jacket (I've been at a
> > > conference with him in attendance and he was very civilised, very
> > > capable in argument - especially in explaining the holocaust denial as
> > > something very different from our neo-Nazi stuff) into an extreme
> > > position hoping he will allow some
> > > kind of strike to protect himself and the establishment from the
> > > moderate majority in Iran…” – archy
>
> > > Yes, I have heard him on a couple of occasions show what many would
> > > call healthy skepticism when it came to such things. His relativism is
> > > all too common today and the result is predictable. [“Iran is a
> > > cognate of Aryan, and means “Land of the Aryans”.”] On the other hand,
> > > Chomsky has quite eloquently supplied his staunch support of the major
> > > holocaust denier’s right to do so. Universality as a principle holds
> > > no favorites. Back to the suit, being the leader of a country which
> > > has been attacked and overthrown, almost twice by the US, resulting in
> > > a long imposition of a Shaw would color one’s views. The countless
> > > years of all out war with its neighbors, and extreme death toll…also,
> > > stuck between a supreme Ayatollah and a polarized, albeit primarily
> > > progressive, populous sprinkled with fanatics could drive many a
> > > person to madness…an analogy might be the US itself.
>
> > > I have a younger couple who are friends, the female of which lived in
> > > Iran for most of her life. Her stories make it clear that as many
> > > problems as we have as a society, the struggles there are greater. I
> > > find the movie ‘Persepolis’ to be representative in mood, based on
> > > this woman’s stories. Quite dark.
>
> > > Another Iranian friend and his parents moved here years ago…the
> > > parents were Zorastrians, father ex-military… and the stories about
> > > religious persecution there are understated if anything. I’m not sure,
> > > but I believe the average age in Iran is very low…and creates another
> > > problem.
>
> > > On Oct 2, 6:21 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > Our eldest daughter is over there. She gets the feeling Israeli
> > > > politics is too corrupt for much decent to happen. I haven't been for
> > > > years - back then there was a socialist ethos I rather liked. I have
> > > > a general thought about situations like this - we rarely turn our own
> > > > thinking about 'Western madness' into wondering how we look to
> > > > 'loonies' like Gaddafi. I think the whole area is closer to war than
> > > > we are admitting in public and it's us looking to spark it off. The
> > > > talk of peace looks very shaky against the realities, whatever they
> > > > are. Orn's transcript almost shows a man to believe in given what we
> > > > know about the UN - but what can we know. I fancy we are pushing the
> > > > Mad Dinner Jacket (I've been at a conference with him in attendance
> > > > and he was very civilised, very capable in argument - especially in
> > > > explaining the holocaust denial as something very different from our
> > > > neo-Nazi stuff) into an extreme position hoping he will allow some
> > > > kind of strike to protect himself and the establishment from the
> > > > moderate majority in Iran. I hope I'm wrong, but we seem
>
> ...
>
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>
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