Persepolis is a brilliant movie, and for anyone interested in the realities of Iran from a citizen (and now ex-pat)'s view, it's an excellent primer. I highly recommend it.
On Sat, Oct 3, 2009 at 7:06 AM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > I couldn't watch Persepolis because of my involvement in the Middle > East - tears. I hope I did manage to bungle my way through to a few > good things there, but I have no doubt there is much worse going on in > the region than we manage 'locally' (not so sure once foreign policy > is operating or 'red rubber' commerce involved). Some debates I was > involved in were televised over there - rather interesting given what > happens with air-time over here. There is a lot of interest in > alternatives to 'grasping capitalism' and how what freedoms we have > may have really arisen. The Holocaust denial stuff interests me > because it is so different from the drivel in the West. There is no > denial that millions were killed, just that there is no real special > case. A variation is Turkey's denial of Armenian genocide - they > don't deny the deaths, just the organisation of them and the lack of > any special peculiarity given commonplace mass killings at the time > and before. 2.5 million starved to death in Bengal in WW2 and we make > no special mention of it. The 'Total Solution' was hardly new - Moses > is a similar war criminal in Numbers 31 - let alone the notion of > killing all two year olds etc. > France and Britain left masses of troops stationed in the Middle east > after WW2 - we had 80,000 there 10 years after the end of the war - at > a time when the country was broke. We can argue WW1 started with a > British invasion of Iraq in 1913. The area has been constantly > colonised by the West or the Ottomans. It would take several books > 'not to do justice' to the complexity. Arabs and non-Jewish Semites > tend to tell a story of the Jews occupying their homes - asking what > you would do in similar circumstances. I usually respond by saying we > should have given Ireland to the Jews and Skye to the Hong Kong > Chinese. Passions run too high for the serious points ever to be > made. At bottom, I suspect Israel is a US pawn and the historical > arguments pathetic blather. If the poles melt are we lowlanders > likely to accept the inalienable rights of those on higher land? I > actually live 200 feet higher than the Fylde coast that would be lost > near here. Much of the habitable Middle East would be lost. No > bloody refuge is having my spare bedroom!!! > War is, as you say Orn, in the firmament. 40,000 more troops for > Afghanistan? Now where have we heard that recently? This is a > country with a GDP less than 40,000 troops would cost. What is there? > I wouldn't presume to present argument on this dreadful situation. > It's not our right - we need genuine opinion from the ground and a > revelation of true history to prevent the idiot Crusader-Jihadi > position. We hung Saddam but not Mugabe - so let's not listen to > moral dross. This situation is typical of many where those in power > are happy no argumentative resolution is possible - they ensure that. > We should be asking why, not being partisans on doomed 'rights' > positions. There is a truth here that could be told, there is a > chance of communication between peoples not leaders and so on. > My suspicions are that our foreign policy people are smart enough to > know how to manipulate Dinner Jacket and that he is 'smart' enough to > fall for it. We have always prevented the rise of tolerant rule by a > middle class (much as ours) in Iran and Iraq, probably encouraged the > lunatic Iran-Iraq war (what happened to the Iranian Navy?) - it goes > on. It should be blatantly obvious by now that traditional argument > on all this is biased beyond any use other than to keep the 'argument' > going and prevent resolution. Given we are top dog, I can only > suspect we want things this way. In dark rooms somewhere, 'we' are > thinking of nuking Iran, Pakistan and Somalia (maybe Saudi too) to > ensure they can't 'surprise' us with their nuclear piles and maybe > working with India to 'secure peace'. I don't have access to what is > really going on, but am sure Britain and France meant to colonise the > Middle East back in 1956 and were only usurped as usurpers by US > foreign policy expertise and financial clout. In 1861 imperialist > Europe (including Russia) met in Berlin to cut up Africa and try to > organise an invasion of the USA - fortunately 'we' were too stupid to > see the US threat and didn't wade in. Since then, the US has taken > over. Who knows, but I'm sure we are not the good guys of the > Magnificent Seven. > > On 3 Oct, 07:58, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > “…She gets the feeling Israeli politics is too corrupt for much decent > > to happen. …” – archy > > > > I met a visiting elder couple from Israel a couple of years ago at a > > B&B on the Pacific coast. Over breakfast, even though when asked he > > wouldn’t answer, my guess is that he had been Mossad. He had lived > > long enough to see what at the time was a very fanatical leadership as > > a true threat to what I can only guess was his beloved homeland and > > people. I saw the faint start of tears arise as we gingerly discussed > > the politics and associated results. During most of my life, I had > > manifested the result of drinking the Kool-Aid about the primacy and > > righteousness of Israel. This was necessary to manufacture the consent > > for the support of a ‘new’ country after 1948 and in this context is > > understandable. > > > > “…we rarely turn our own thinking about 'Western madness' into > > wondering how we look to 'loonies' like Gaddafi…” – archy > > > > Long ago in ‘86, around the time the US bombed Libya, I had to > > empathize with Muammar to some extent when he lost his Hannah to the > > US attack. Other civilians were murdered along with numerous > > governmental members. Feeling the impotence to only be able to > > retaliate with firing two Scuds into the sea must have been painful. > > WWBD? [What Would Bush Do?] > > > > “…I think the whole area is closer to war than we are admitting in > > public and it's us looking to spark it off….” Archy > > > > Again, I am ignorant yet would not be at all surprised at all if this > > were the case. As to being close to war, this seems to be an > > omnipresent condition, all prophesies aside. > > > > “…I fancy we are pushing the Mad Dinner Jacket (I've been at a > > conference with him in attendance and he was very civilised, very > > capable in argument - especially in explaining the holocaust denial as > > something very different from our neo-Nazi stuff) into an extreme > > position hoping he will allow some > > kind of strike to protect himself and the establishment from the > > moderate majority in Iran…” – archy > > > > Yes, I have heard him on a couple of occasions show what many would > > call healthy skepticism when it came to such things. His relativism is > > all too common today and the result is predictable. [“Iran is a > > cognate of Aryan, and means “Land of the Aryans”.”] On the other hand, > > Chomsky has quite eloquently supplied his staunch support of the major > > holocaust denier’s right to do so. Universality as a principle holds > > no favorites. Back to the suit, being the leader of a country which > > has been attacked and overthrown, almost twice by the US, resulting in > > a long imposition of a Shaw would color one’s views. The countless > > years of all out war with its neighbors, and extreme death toll…also, > > stuck between a supreme Ayatollah and a polarized, albeit primarily > > progressive, populous sprinkled with fanatics could drive many a > > person to madness…an analogy might be the US itself. > > > > I have a younger couple who are friends, the female of which lived in > > Iran for most of her life. Her stories make it clear that as many > > problems as we have as a society, the struggles there are greater. I > > find the movie ‘Persepolis’ to be representative in mood, based on > > this woman’s stories. Quite dark. > > > > Another Iranian friend and his parents moved here years ago…the > > parents were Zorastrians, father ex-military… and the stories about > > religious persecution there are understated if anything. I’m not sure, > > but I believe the average age in Iran is very low…and creates another > > problem. > > > > On Oct 2, 6:21 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Our eldest daughter is over there. She gets the feeling Israeli > > > politics is too corrupt for much decent to happen. I haven't been for > > > years - back then there was a socialist ethos I rather liked. I have > > > a general thought about situations like this - we rarely turn our own > > > thinking about 'Western madness' into wondering how we look to > > > 'loonies' like Gaddafi. I think the whole area is closer to war than > > > we are admitting in public and it's us looking to spark it off. The > > > talk of peace looks very shaky against the realities, whatever they > > > are. Orn's transcript almost shows a man to believe in given what we > > > know about the UN - but what can we know. I fancy we are pushing the > > > Mad Dinner Jacket (I've been at a conference with him in attendance > > > and he was very civilised, very capable in argument - especially in > > > explaining the holocaust denial as something very different from our > > > neo-Nazi stuff) into an extreme position hoping he will allow some > > > kind of strike to protect himself and the establishment from the > > > moderate majority in Iran. I hope I'm wrong, but we seem to do almost > > > anything rather than encourage democracy out there. If the area had > > > any sense it would give itself up to Swiss colonisation, but then so > > > would we if we had any sense! > > > > > On 30 Sep, 23:42, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Fran, while I watched his presentation to the UN and did find it a > > > > little rambling, the specific I was referring to was his interview > > > > with Larry King, on TV, which I watched too. I did not find that > > > > bizarre in the least. Well, good ‘ol Larry is a hoot and has aspects > > > > of bizarreness! ;-) To be fair, you might want to watch a video > rather > > > > than just read what occurred, although I couldn’t find a copy of the > > > > video interview. Strange. Here is the transcript: > > > > > >http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0909/28/lkl.01.html > > > > > > On Sep 30, 8:27 am, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > A cantonal solution - perhaps something along the Swiss model, but > > > > > with even less centralisation - has been frequently suggested, > > > > > possibly with an independent canton of Jerusalem serving also as > > > > > capital of the Confederation. Internationally guaranteed and > perhaps, > > > > > in the initial stages, with some kind of international policing > > > > > component. Looked at from outside, "objectively", such a structure > > > > > seems to offers much of the freedoms and safeguards demanded by > both > > > > > sides. In this sense, Gadaffi's suggestion does have merit (even if > > > > > the circumstances were somewhat bizarrehttp:// > www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article68...). > > > > > > > However, the issues involved are not approached in the area > primarily > > > > > from a rational point of view. > > > > > > > Francis > > > > > > > On 30 Sep., 09:18, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > > > fran, yes....however, due to the attitudes here in the states, I > > > > > > wanted the idea to be anonymous...still interested in what others > > > > > > think of the idea. > > > > > > > > On Sep 29, 11:57 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think one country would result in a genocide of the > Palestinians,,, Israel > > > > > > > is trying to kill as may as they can with every thing they do > or that seems > > > > > > > seems that way.. what would be more interesting is have the UN > define the > > > > > > > borders as they did in 1948 making one part Palestine and and > the other part > > > > > > > Israel.. and anyone living in Palestine territory automaticly > would fall > > > > > > > under Palestine law and Israel should have no input.. > > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 30, 2009 at 6:28 AM, ornamentalmind < > [email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Yesterday, a world leader suggested uniting Israel and > Palestine into > > > > > > > > one country, Israetine. He said that “…: That is the historic > > > > > > > > solution, a peaceful one, a peaceful solution. All other > efforts will > > > > > > > > fail. This solution will succeed only. Not adopting this > solution will > > > > > > > > lead to great losses on both parties...” > > > > > > > > > > What do YOU think? > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > ( > > > > > > > ) > > > > > > > I_D Allan- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
