Thanks for the Clarke link, Alan. It's a couple of decades ago since I first read the story and it was good to read it again - even if the basic story line isn't one that you'd forget!
Speaking as a now ex-Catholic (ex-Christian), while studying theology full-time as a Dominican, I didn't think that the basic truth of the Christian message was dependent on the literal veracity of the scriptural accounts of the Jesus event. Approached from a serious academic point of view there is little evidence for the facutal truth of the nativity accounts - Mark, the earliest account of Jesus' life, works and sayings, seems to know nothing of the Bethlehem origins of Jesus and even this gospel, on analysis, shows so many signs of careful literary construction that it's impossible to see it as an "objective" historical record, the same being even more true for the other synoptics and especially the gospel of John, probably written 60 to 70 years after the events it describes. The records the New Testament leaves us are meditations on the meaning of the Jesus event for the authors and the communities for which they were writing. As such, they are ineluctably "faith documents." which is just fine for believers. A more recent example of such things would be Parson Weems biography of George Washington which includes the completely historically unsupported cherry tree story. What I take issue with is the line of argument followed by people like Wesley, who try to (mis)use Christian scripture as "proof" of "facts." There is a branch of Christian theology called apologetics (going back to Tertullian in the 2nd. Century C.E. - C.S. Lewis is a name many will recognise), but very few serious practitioners of this field would even dream of using the bible in this fashion. I think the key phrase you use is "People can tell stories." And stories can be powerful means for communicating deeply felt insights and beliefs. But they can only fully unfold their potential when the narrators and audiences share the same language. In a Wittgensteinian sense, I would argue that the languages of believers and non-believers (even if they use a common everyday language) have large areas where there is no overlapping, or where the ostensibly same words/phrases/ memes have quite different meanings and ring different bells in their hearers. That said, as a non-believer, I admit cheerfully to loving Advent and Christmas, the idea of spitting in the face of winter, affirming new life in the midst of darkness, finding deep truth in the meme of the most important, wonderful, significant things in life being found in areas which the great and powerful completely miss. Stars and shepherds and angels and wise men and difficult journeys and jealous kings - and a baby sleeping securely, yet surrounded by uncertainty and mortal peril. And Christmas trees and carols and celebrating family and friendship, giving and receiving gifts. And my own special ritual of making the living-room warm and comfy (especially when it's cold, dark and uncomfortable outside), lighting candles to make a nice subdued, flickering light, making a pot of roibusch tea with extra winter-herbal additions and listening to Händel's Messiah! Repeatedly in Advent - and, if I'm alone, even singing along! Francis On 26 Okt., 16:13, Alan Wostenberg <[email protected]> wrote: > Astronomy club sure sounds fun! Have you read Arthur C Clarke's > corking good short story called The Star, about the Star of Bethlehem, > a future astronomer, and a discovery regarding an alien race? > Seehttp://lucis.net/stuff/clarke/star_clarke.html > > Most people who think the resurrection and nativity are stories do so > from a prior commitment to naturalism -- that miracles don't happen, > therefore, we are constrained to interpret every miraculous report as > a story. Like myself, you seem to reject naturalism. Miracles can > happen. People can tell stories. Which is it in the case of the > nativity and resurrection? How to tell? > > On Oct 25, 2:01 am, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I used to belong to an astronomy club in Bozeman Montana.. and several o the > > members ran the planetarium that is there so we would look at a lot of > > different ideas, and there was a solar eclipse happening at the time so the > > idea came up to find out whre they had occured.. and i believe it was 33 CE > > and there was one right over jersulem around the time of his crucifiction. > > That was how they were able to date? it. > > > The nativity scene great short story,, but there would have no real reason > > to record it and .. just can not buy it.. > > > Miricales I am not totally ready to dismiss to many native american > > medicine men and things I don't understand I have seen and feltr to much > > and I can not explain it.. then there is my ex and that I can partially > > medically document it was weird. > > > As for the reserection thing when my father died I was with him.. very > > tamatic for me as I loved him much more than I realized.. What evolved is > > the idea what if our life here is a form of death of the soul or maybe a > > proving ground for morality.. and upon death one given accounting of ones > > life and choices(God does not provide it) rather it is a record we create of > > our own memories. If death is really the rebirth into a totally spiritual > > existance which I think the soul is designed for what you have is the true > > definition of a reserection.. the rebirth back into the spiritual life. > > Allan > > > , Alan Wosterberg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Hey, Allan -- I didn't know there was "an event astronomically that > > > can be dated like a total solar eclipse over Jerusalem in 33 CE.". > > > Cool! > > > > You have "often wondered what the new testament of the bible would > > > be like if you removed the parts that are in reality are made up > > > short stories used to sell a bill of goods. ". It seems most others > > > here agree with your premise. > > > > But I don't see how one could know "in realitiy" the resurrection and > > > nativity are stories, unless it is just deduction from an a-priori > > > principle such as "miracles don't happen", in which case every report > > > of a miracle must be interpreted as a story. Very well, but one who > > > does not accept this principle is not obliged to dismiss the miracles > > > as stories. > > > > But assuming they are stories, this raises a second question. What's a > > > good way to sell a bill of goods? One can hardly sell a bill of goods > > > by sticking to facts. Perhaps, then, it is the end -- "a bill of > > > goods" that is the culprit, and not the means: making up stories. > > > > In which case, what is the bill of goods being sold? I suppose some > > > misinformed atheists believe it is the promise of eternal life. "Just > > > do X", says the salesman, "and you will earn eternal life". Now if > > > that is the bill of goods being sold, the Catholic joins the atheist > > > in rejecting it! > > > > On Oct 23, 10:57 am, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I have often wondered what the new testament of the bible would be > > > > like > > > if > > > > you removed the parts that are in reality are made up short stories used > > > to > > > > sell a bill of goods. An example(s) being the nativity stories, the > > > > resurrection (misunderstood,) the writings of Saul Of Tarsus the book > > > of > > > > revelations. to name a few > > > > > I wonder if a book (it would probably be very short) getting rid of the > > > > exact interpretation but rather trying to expressed express the ideas > > > that > > > > Jesus the man best wanted to express. I look at our group and the > > > atheists > > > > and agnostics have a very valuable role in working out that validity of > > > what > > > > is being said. There is a definite need to counter balance my own > > > beliefs > > > > and those of other fanatics. > > > > > To tell the truth this would be a total dream for me. There is an event > > > > astronomically that can be dated like a total solar eclipse over > > > Jerusalem > > > > in 33 CE. I do know that there are religious fanatics in the Philippines > > > > that are crucified (literally) and they regularly survive it. I think > > > these > > > > things need to be taken into account, from what I understand it actually > > > > takes several days to die that way. > > > > > Here I have to admit I am jealous of the sheer enlightenment of > > > > spiritual > > > > knowledge Francis and other members of this group possess. I am hoping > > > they > > > > will take to this idea. > > > > Allan > > > > > ( > > > > ) > > > > I_D Allan > > > -- > > ( > > ) > > I_D Allan --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
