Francis knowing you you are right,, I view a lot of things as allegories as i am not looking for the historical accuracy. Personally what I look for is what is of value and not what is said..verbatim, I was very fortunate I was given a Franciscan version of the bible called "The Way" where I read it after a major knee operation sitting on the side of the road ten days after the operation and 38 days of starving to death I mean fasting. It is amazing what you can read.
I have exactly the same problem with the same verses.. and a lot of others too. Allan On Tue, Oct 27, 2009 at 7:50 PM, frantheman <[email protected]>wrote: > > In general, Alan, I have major problems with "miracles", seen from a > literal, scientific point of view - given the way we see and describe > our world today. From a "faith" point of view, miracles become > unproblematic, because they are seen within a particular context of > meaning in which the world and life is perceived. For the believer, > all kinds of events can be infused with miraculous meanings - the most > potent being "conversions of heart" - the working of God's grace. > Evelyn Waugh's "Brideshead Revisited" is an excellent example of this > kind of world view. The same themes are also present in many of Graham > Greene's works - and, indeed, it is no coincidence here that both > Waugh and Greene were converts to Catholicism who struggled with their > new religion. > > The baptism of Jesus by John is generally accepted as having a good > claim to historicity. See > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_of_Jesus#Historicity as a brief > summary. > > My problems begin with verses 10 and 11. How are we to understand the > phrases "the heavens being torn" > (σχιζομένους τούς ούρανούς) and "the Spirit, like a dove" (τό Πνεΰμα > ώσεί περιστεράν)? Not to mention the saying of the voice from the > heavens. This is, for me, not the language of objective observation, > but of faith-inspired interpretation of significance. A common (and > sincerely believed) literary descriptive device of the sort used in > countless descriptions of what the authors saw as significant events, > not only Christian ones, up to (and in many cases beyond) the > beginning of the scientific era. > > Francis > > On 27 Okt., 15:53, Alan Wostenberg <[email protected]> wrote: > > You say "Approached from a serious academic point of view there is > > little evidence for the facutal truth of the nativity accounts ". I'm > > afraid not what the writers I follow are saying. They claim those who > > interpret the New Testament gospel accounts as "faith documents" are > > applying an exegetical principal that all miraculous accounts are to > > be read as a story and not literal history. Let me ask you: is this > > true? > > > > For example, in the first dozen verses of Mark's gospel, which verses > > those academics say is an historical record, and which not: > > v4 John (the) Baptist appeared in the desert proclaiming a baptism > > of repentance for the forgiveness of sins > > v6. John was clothed in camel's hair, with a leather belt around his > > waist. He fed on locusts and wild honey. > > v9. It happened in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of > > Galilee and was baptized in the Jordan by John. > > v10. On coming up out of the water he saw the heavens being torn > > open and the Spirit, like a dove, descending upon him. > > v11. And a voice came from the heavens, "You are my beloved Son; > > with you I am well pleased" > > > > On Oct 26, 11:01 am, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Thanks for the Clarke link, Alan. It's a couple of decades ago since I > > > first read the story and it was good to read it again - even if the > > > basic story line isn't one that you'd forget! > > > > > Speaking as a now ex-Catholic (ex-Christian), while studying theology > > > full-time as a Dominican, I didn't think that the basic truth of the > > > Christian message was dependent on the literal veracity of the > > > scriptural accounts of the Jesus event. Approached from a serious > > > academic point of view there is little evidence for the facutal truth > > > of the nativity accounts - Mark, the earliest account of Jesus' life, > > > works and sayings, seems to know nothing of the Bethlehem origins of > > > Jesus and even this gospel, on analysis, shows so many signs of > > > careful literary construction that it's impossible to see it as an > > > "objective" historical record, the same being even more true for the > > > other synoptics and especially the gospel of John, probably written 60 > > > to 70 years after the events it describes. > > > > > The records the New Testament leaves us are meditations on the meaning > > > of the Jesus event for the authors and the communities for which they > > > were writing. As such, they are ineluctably "faith documents." which > > > is just fine for believers. A more recent example of such things would > > > be Parson Weems biography of George Washington which includes the > > > completely historically unsupported cherry tree story. What I take > > > issue with is the line of argument followed by people like Wesley, who > > > try to (mis)use Christian scripture as "proof" of "facts." There is a > > > branch of Christian theology called apologetics (going back to > > > Tertullian in the 2nd. Century C.E. - C.S. Lewis is a name many will > > > recognise), but very few serious practitioners of this field would > > > even dream of using the bible in this fashion. > > > > > I think the key phrase you use is "People can tell stories." And > > > stories can be powerful means for communicating deeply felt insights > > > and beliefs. But they can only fully unfold their potential when the > > > narrators and audiences share the same language. In a Wittgensteinian > > > sense, I would argue that the languages of believers and non-believers > > > (even if they use a common everyday language) have large areas where > > > there is no overlapping, or where the ostensibly same words/phrases/ > > > memes have quite different meanings and ring different bells in their > > > hearers. > > > > > That said, as a non-believer, I admit cheerfully to loving Advent and > > > Christmas, the idea of spitting in the face of winter, affirming new > > > life in the midst of darkness, finding deep truth in the meme of the > > > most important, wonderful, significant things in life being found in > > > areas which the great and powerful completely miss. Stars and > > > shepherds and angels and wise men and difficult journeys and jealous > > > kings - and a baby sleeping securely, yet surrounded by uncertainty > > > and mortal peril. And Christmas trees and carols and celebrating > > > family and friendship, giving and receiving gifts. And my own special > > > ritual of making the living-room warm and comfy (especially when it's > > > cold, dark and uncomfortable outside), lighting candles to make a nice > > > subdued, flickering light, making a pot of roibusch tea with extra > > > winter-herbal additions and listening to Händel's Messiah! Repeatedly > > > in Advent - and, if I'm alone, even singing along! > > > > > Francis > > > > > On 26 Okt., 16:13, Alan Wostenberg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Astronomy club sure sounds fun! Have you read Arthur C Clarke's > > > > corking good short story called The Star, about the Star of > Bethlehem, > > > > a future astronomer, and a discovery regarding an alien race? > Seehttp://lucis.net/stuff/clarke/star_clarke.html > > > > > > Most people who think the resurrection and nativity are stories do so > > > > from a prior commitment to naturalism -- that miracles don't happen, > > > > therefore, we are constrained to interpret every miraculous report as > > > > a story. Like myself, you seem to reject naturalism. Miracles can > > > > happen. People can tell stories. Which is it in the case of the > > > > nativity and resurrection? How to tell? > > > > > > On Oct 25, 2:01 am, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > I used to belong to an astronomy club in Bozeman Montana.. and > several o the > > > > > members ran the planetarium that is there so we would look at a > lot of > > > > > different ideas, and there was a solar eclipse happening at the > time so the > > > > > idea came up to find out whre they had occured.. and i believe it > was 33 CE > > > > > and there was one right over jersulem around the time of his > crucifiction. > > > > > That was how they were able to date? it. > > > > > > > The nativity scene great short story,, but there would have no > real reason > > > > > to record it and .. just can not buy it.. > > > > > > > Miricales I am not totally ready to dismiss to many native > american > > > > > medicine men and things I don't understand I have seen and feltr > to much > > > > > and I can not explain it.. then there is my ex and that I can > partially > > > > > medically document it was weird. > > > > > > > As for the reserection thing when my father died I was with him.. > very > > > > > tamatic for me as I loved him much more than I realized.. What > evolved is > > > > > the idea what if our life here is a form of death of the soul or > maybe a > > > > > proving ground for morality.. and upon death one given accounting > of ones > > > > > life and choices(God does not provide it) rather it is a record we > create of > > > > > our own memories. If death is really the rebirth into a totally > spiritual > > > > > existance which I think the soul is designed for what you have is > the true > > > > > definition of a reserection.. the rebirth back into the spiritual > life. > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > , Alan Wosterberg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hey, Allan -- I didn't know there was "an event astronomically > that > > > > > > can be dated like a total solar eclipse over Jerusalem in 33 > CE.". > > > > > > Cool! > > > > > > > > You have "often wondered what the new testament of the bible > would > > > > > > be like if you removed the parts that are in reality are made up > > > > > > short stories used to sell a bill of goods. ". It seems most > others > > > > > > here agree with your premise. > > > > > > > > But I don't see how one could know "in realitiy" the resurrection > and > > > > > > nativity are stories, unless it is just deduction from an > a-priori > > > > > > principle such as "miracles don't happen", in which case every > report > > > > > > of a miracle must be interpreted as a story. Very well, but one > who > > > > > > does not accept this principle is not obliged to dismiss the > miracles > > > > > > as stories. > > > > > > > > But assuming they are stories, this raises a second question. > What's a > > > > > > good way to sell a bill of goods? One can hardly sell a bill of > goods > > > > > > by sticking to facts. Perhaps, then, it is the end -- "a bill of > > > > > > goods" that is the culprit, and not the means: making up stories. > > > > > > > > In which case, what is the bill of goods being sold? I suppose > some > > > > > > misinformed atheists believe it is the promise of eternal life. > "Just > > > > > > do X", says the salesman, "and you will earn eternal life". Now > if > > > > > > that is the bill of goods being sold, the Catholic joins the > atheist > > > > > > in rejecting it! > > > > > > > > On Oct 23, 10:57 am, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > I have often wondered what the new testament of the bible > would be like > > > > > > if > > > > > > > you removed the parts that are in reality are made up short > stories used > > > > > > to > > > > > > > sell a bill of goods. An example(s) being the nativity stories, > the > > > > > > > resurrection (misunderstood,) the writings of Saul Of Tarsus > the book > > > > > > of > > > > > > > revelations. to name a few > > > > > > > > > I wonder if a book (it would probably be very short) getting > rid of the > > > > > > > exact interpretation but rather trying to expressed express the > ideas > > > > > > that > > > > > > > Jesus the man best wanted to express. I look at our group and > the > > > > > > atheists > > > > > > > and agnostics have a very valuable role in working out that > validity of > > > > > > what > > > > > > > is being said. There is a definite need to counter balance my > own > > > > > > beliefs > > > > > > > and those of other fanatics. > > > > > > > > > To tell the truth this would be a total dream for me. There is > an event > > > > > > > astronomically that can be dated like a total solar eclipse > over > > > > > > Jerusalem > > > > > > > in 33 CE. I do know that there are religious fanatics in the > Philippines > > > > > > > that are crucified (literally) and they regularly survive it. I > think > > > > > > these > > > > > > > things need to be > > > > ... > > > > Erfahren Sie mehr » > > > -- ( ) I_D Allan --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
