Yep fran, that is how I see it too.

On Nov 30, 9:32 am, fran the man <[email protected]> wrote:
> Oh that's lovely, Orn! Chomsky does have that knack of pointing the
> searchlight into the dark, unspoken areas and then turning up the
> power, doesn't he? :-)
>
> Francis
>
> On 30 Nov., 17:15, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Recently there have been comments here about brainwashing. I agree. In
> > fact, my view is that most people are walking around in a trance the
> > majority of the time.
>
> > Specific areas we have discussed here recently have included
> > healthcare, capitalism and government. As most of you know, I
> > appreciate Noam Chomsky’s clear and fresh view on such things. I learn
> > each time I read him. Here he has presented observations about some
> > things I have had an intuition about but never could have put into
> > such a cogent presentation. This is a small excerpt from a longer
> > interview…you can find the link to the source at the bottom.
>
> > “…NC: The U.S. is different from Europe and other industrial countries
> > in this respect. [labor movement] The U.S. is, to a very unusual
> > extent, a business-run society. There are all kinds of reasons for that
> > —it has no feudal background, so institutions that remained in place
> > in Europe did not remain in place here. There are a lot of reasons.
> > But the fact of the matter is that the U.S. is run by an unusually
> > class-conscious, dedicated business class that has a very violent
> > labor history, much worse than in Europe. The attack on unions has
> > been far more extreme here, and it has been much more successful.
> > Also, the business propaganda has been far more successful. Anti-union
> > propaganda has been considerably more successful here than in Europe,
> > even among working people who would benefit [from] unions. In fact, a
> > rather striking aspect of business propaganda in the United States is
> > the demonization of government, starting after the Second World War.
>
> > The Second World War ended with a radicalization of the population in
> > the United States and everywhere else, and called for all kinds of
> > things like popular takeovers, government intervention, and worker
> > takeovers of factories. Business propagated a tremendous propaganda
> > offensive. The scale surprised me when I read the scholarship—it's
> > enormous, and it's been very effective. There were two major targets:
> > one is unions, the other is democracy. Well, [to them] democracy means
> > getting people to regard government as an alien force that's robbing
> > them and oppressing them, not as their government. In a democracy it
> > would be your government. For example, in a democracy the day when you
> > pay your taxes, April 15, would be a day of celebration, because
> > you're getting together to provide resources for the programs you
> > decided on. In the United States, it's a day of mourning because this
> > alien force—the government—is coming to rob you of your hard-earned
> > money. That's the general attitude, and it's a tremendous victory for
> > the opponents of democracy, and, of course, any privileged sector is
> > going to hate democracy. You can see it in the healthcare debate.
>
> > The majority of the population thinks that if the government runs
> > healthcare, they're going to take away your freedom. At the same time,
> > the public favors a national healthcare program. The contradiction is
> > somehow unresolved. In the case of the business propaganda, it's
> > particularly ironic because while business wants the population to
> > hate the government, they want the population to love the government.
> > Namely, they're in favor of a very powerful state which works in their
> > interest. So you have to love that government, but hate the government
> > that might work in your interest and that you could control. That's an
> > interesting propaganda task, but it's been carried out very well. You
> > can see it in the worship of Reagan, which portrays him as somebody
> > who saved us from government. Actually he was an apostle of big
> > government. Government grew under Reagan. He was the strongest
> > opponent of free markets in the post-war history among presidents. But
> > it doesn't matter what the reality is; they concocted an image that
> > you worship. It's hard to achieve that, especially in a free society,
> > but it's been done, and that's the kind of thing that activists in the
> > IWW have to work against, right on the shop floor. It's not so simple,
> > but it's been done before…” – Noam Chomsky
>
> > As far as I know, the history is unassailable. The attitude is
> > subjective and one that I share.
>
> > On Nov 30, 6:08 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > We have been educated and brainwashed to believe we "need" politicians
> > > (royal families, shady executives and financial thieves, etc.) to get
> > > "things" done just as immigrants were strong-armed that they needed
> > > "protection" from the mafia and hoodlums in order to safeguard their
> > > businesses and families. For that matter, many educators are little
> > > more than baby/young adult sitters and knowledge can be aquired
> > > without their dubious assistance- they issue a degree that proves
> > > nothing.//On the other hand, I hate to tweak your already fragile
> > > mood- so cheer up, mate, and have a good week!
>
> > > On Nov 30, 4:12 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > I was pondering, nope sorry wrong word let me start again.
>
> > > > This morning I was watching the news on breakfast TV before I left for
> > > > work, one story that had me steaming was the on about a school dinner
> > > > lady who got the sack after telling a parent of her daugther being
> > > > bullyed at aschool.  This girl had been tied up against a fence and
> > > > whiped with a skipping rope by four boys. The school sent home a
> > > > letter to the parents of the girl informing them that she had been
> > > > involved in an incedent with a skipping rope.  No further detials than
> > > > that.  This happend a while ago and the story was really about the
> > > > dinner lady losing her cuort fight to be reinstated.
>
> > > > So in this case when the truth is told, the teller gets punished, the
> > > > school it seems to me was more interested in the schools good standing
> > > > in the commuity than the poor bullied girl.
>
> > > > There was also an inteview with a higher up in the NHS poo pooing the
> > > > report by the Dr Foster body which suggests that at least 11 HNS Trust
> > > > hospitals offer substandard care. Such lack of care causeing the
> > > > needless and aviodable deaths of many patients, manly due to lack of
> > > > cleanlyness.  9 of these hospitals had apperantly passed checks and
> > > > where named in an NHS report as safe and good hospitals.  The thing
> > > > with this one is that the NHS checkd were carried out by the
> > > > management of each hospital trust, in house and as the interviewer put
> > > > it. ticking their own boxes.  The higher up blustered on about how the
> > > > Dr Foster body merely took existing statistics and made of them what
> > > > they will.  So again it seems that the higer up you are the less you
> > > > want the truth to be known.
>
> > > > Now lets not talk about those biggest untruth tellers of the lot, the
> > > > politicians, coz well coz I guess we do need them, and I'm not ready
> > > > to get that angry on a Monday with a full working week ahead of me.
>
> > > > On 29 Nov, 15:58, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > We can bleat forever about the nature of truth.  I generally prefer a
> > > > > limited notion of truth and honesty against lies and deception.  This
> > > > > is not the whole story, but broadly speaking, if I'm on a jury I want
> > > > > to know 'the truth' to make my decision.  I don't much fancy sending
> > > > > someone to the gallows on the basis of whether Jupiter is in
> > > > > conjunction with a horse's ass.  What has happened to this level of
> > > > > truth and in whose interests is it to make it so difficult to know
> > > > > about global warming, wealth, what our basic ways of living should be
> > > > > and so on?  An exploration of human and vested interests is likely to
> > > > > tell us more about this than trying to find personal integrity.  The
> > > > > general academic consensus is that we shy away from even looking at
> > > > > what goes on in the world because we are dire cowards who need to live
> > > > > in relativistic cloud-cuckoo lands and that reality is too tough for
> > > > > us.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

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