How about old Jesus' speed at ascension? Wouldn't he count as unconstrained by agency at that point in time? Without the being Neo burden, I mean?
On Wed, Aug 3, 2011 at 11:30 PM, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > " If you think you have free will > because you can choose between varieties of toy and other ADMASS > drivel then pass on by - free will for me would concern beating > Einstein's speed of light and its constrictions - but even then I > would not know I was free rather than selecting from pre-programmed > alternatives or being switched." > > Are you still identified with Neo, in Matrix ? > > What has free will to do with anything concerning Einstein or speed of > light ? > I find the association demented. > > How is free will, the exercise of choice, in a toy shop any different > from the same in any other situation ? > > The Wiki says : Free will is the apparent ability of agents to make > choices free from certain kinds of constraints. Isn't it what you are > speaking of ? > > > On Aug 3, 5:34 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > Much wise in what you say RP and indeed, Orn, many believe they have > > no dreams at all. I note Polkid is beginning his serial killer trip. > > I'm not very keen on these tricky questions we can't answer but can > > use to expose naive and unexamined lives. I went on a long walk with > > some old colleagues who moved into brain science some years back and > > it was noticeable that they are all more convinced free will does not > > exist than I. Humankind seems generally pathetic against the vastness > > we seem to have some awareness of and nothing is given to us as to > > what to do > > > > I have little interest in pursuing the question of free will - in > > normal dialogue of words, concepts, shapes and patterns I see no end > > to it and many sides. Humankind does little in any of this as far as > > we can guess and has no direction on what to seek to achieve we can > > guess. We may know more in the future, but also may not be the > > future. We accede to five senses, though 20 may be more accurate and > > at least 2 more are known in dolphins than we possess. I can tell a > > story of cooling hydrogen molecules and H3+ in the forming of stars > > which were our birth that suggest some form of 'shaping knowledge' > > even in the inorganic and the tale of the most, that that must be but > > which we cannot see and yet I can only describe my own free will in > > comparison with uninspiring robots. Some god might unplug us at any > > time. > > Much of the brain science going on finds that human beings do not make > > rational decisions. I suspect they may have been wasting their > > electrodes, as most of us are so poor at critical reasoning it > > wouldn't make sense for us to use it. We may not be far off a robot > > programmed with emotional responses that match or exceed our own. I > > believe most people are tranced and cannot think their way out of a > > wet paper bag. This is not unusual in pack and herd conditions.This > > is a biological trance in my view. > > For me there has to be more than the striving of science and I don't > > want this to be a religious crock. If you think you have free will > > because you can choose between varieties of toy and other ADMASS > > drivel then pass on by - free will for me would concern beating > > Einstein's speed of light and its constrictions - but even then I > > would not know I was free rather than selecting from pre-programmed > > alternatives or being switched. > > The questions come after this 'indecision' as do those of what is > > observing and its picture. > > > > On Aug 2, 10:59 pm, "pol.science kid" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > i killed a dog.. my zombieness made me do it.... > > > > > On Tue, Aug 2, 2011 at 11:21 PM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > "We have access to a technology that would have looked like sorcery > in > > > > Descartes's day: the ability to peer inside someone's head and read > > > > their thoughts. Unfortunately, that doesn't take us any nearer to > > > > knowing whether they are sentient. "Even if you measure brainwaves, > > > > you can never know exactly what experience they represent," says > > > > psychologist Bruce Hood at the University of Bristol, UK. If > > > > anything, brain scanning has undermined Descartes's maxim. You, too, > > > > might be a zombie. "I happen to be one myself," says Stanford > > > > University philosopher Paul Skokowski. "And so, even if you don't > > > > realise it, are you." Skokowski's assertion is based on the belief, > > > > particularly common among neuroscientists who study brain scans, that > > > > we do not have free will. There is no ghost in the machine; our > > > > actions are driven by brain states that lie entirely beyond our > > > > control. "I think, therefore I am" might be an illusion. > > > > So, it may well be that you live in a computer simulation in which > you > > > > are the only self-aware creature. I could well be a zombie and so > > > > could you. Have an interesting day." (from a recent New Scientist) > > > > > > We range over debates in free will and what it is to be human. So far > > > > we haven't established free will or even that we are not merely > > > > avatars in 'something else's game'. > > > > > > I wonder whether there are advantages in considering ourselves as > > > > creatures limited by programming and also capable of it? > > > > > -- > > > EverComing >
