Then if that is true, and I can see something in it, then my swearing is indeed a moot point.
On Aug 12, 10:44 am, paradox <[email protected]> wrote: > It's not silly, Lee; it's actually the case that "all spoken > communication holds an implied demand" (unless of course one is a > raving looney). I think you're caught up in the distinction between an > implicit and an explicit "demand". It is precisely that implicit > subtle obligation (implicit demand) that tethers "expectation". > > On Aug 12, 10:18 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Ohh I have to disagree, noot unsupprisingly. Or would you say then > > that all spoken communiation holds an implied demand? > > > No I think that is rather silly. You may say that the very act of > > talking to another holds the implied demand that the other listen to > > you. No I think the speaker expects to be listend to, but does not > > demand it. > > > On the other hand, if you think otherwise then swearing is a moot > > point as all spoken communication is liable to such demand. > > > On Aug 12, 9:43 am, paradox <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Funny thing is, Lee, i remember using your argument here as a defence > > > of smoking in public areas; i did recognise though, that it was a > > > diufficult and flawed argument, however passionately i felt (and still > > > feel) about the freedom to smoke in public. On this particular debate > > > with Orn, i think Orn's got it right IMO; the only way our expressions > > > and utterances would not create an "implied" demand, is if we made a > > > presumption that others do not listen (even if they hear); which of > > > course would be curious... > > > > On Aug 11, 12:26 pm, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Ohh OM, no sir you are wrong on this score. This is apt to happen the > > > > more we guess at anoters motives rather than simply ask 'what did you > > > > mean by that?' > > > > > So let me clarify then. > > > > > When I say: 'yes I will swear with impunity, and damn if others choose > > > > to take offense or not.' > > > > > Can you not see that I cleary say I do not care what anothers reaction > > > > to it is. > > > > > Can you not see that this is differant to: 'it is obvious that he is > > > > in fact > > > > demanding that others accept his behavior even if they do not wish > > > > to.' > > > > > I have to say it cannot be obviouse if you have it wrong. > > > > > It is all about the individual. If I swear in front of you and you do > > > > not like it, no way would I ask let a lone demand you to accept. If > > > > you do not like it, then use your own freedom to say so or otherwise > > > > express you dislike. > > > > > True, I may just shrug my shoulders and tell you ohh well. Or I may, > > > > appoliges and not swear in front of you again, dependant on many > > > > things. But I assure you I do not demand anything of anybody, you are > > > > as free as I to live your life your way. > > > > > On Aug 11, 11:33 am, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Allan, being rather legalistic about this, you said: “That is a > > > > > misquote Orn,…”. Accepting that all of our posts may contain typos and > > > > > misstatements, if those are the words you wished to present, my > > > > > response that I had used copy/paste along with any review of earlier > > > > > posts by Lee will confirm that this was not a ‘misquote’ by me. > > > > > > You of course may interpret Lee’s "...I speak as I will and expect > > > > > everybody to do the same, …” as not being a demand. He would agree > > > > > with you. And, parsing the phrase, I can see where you both could come > > > > > to that conclusion too. In particular, he may have meant that his > > > > > ‘expect’ation was based upon a personally assumed probability of > > > > > apparent response by other people. I do get this. > > > > > > And, even with this intention, underlying the comment is a firmly held > > > > > expectation of what reality (in this case other people’s behavior) is. > > > > > I interpret this as placing an artificial demand upon one’s > > > > > appearances…that is, what one sees. Yes, this may be seen as a very > > > > > subtle demand, but as I interpret it a demand none the less. > > > > > > Further still, when one reads Lee’s justification of his behavior: “… > > > > > Elswhere though yes I will swear with impunity, and damn if others > > > > > choose to take offense or not. …”, it is obvious that he is in fact > > > > > demanding that others accept his behavior even if they do not wish to. > > > > > This expectation could turn the topic into all sorts of other areas > > > > > such as Political Correctness, doing no harm, the Golden Rule and > > > > > other such notions associated with morality. When seen through this > > > > > lens, I retain my discrimination (in the archaic sense of the term, > > > > > meaning to differentiate) of my best understanding of Lee’s position. > > > > > > Oh, and Allan, no, I’m not running for office!....at least not in the > > > > > political arena you mean. Some might take offense at your backhanded > > > > > compliment…I take in the spirit of levity I assume it to have been > > > > > given. > > > > > > On Aug 10, 11:01 pm, allan deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Orn isn't this copy/paste change the meaning? > > > > > > (indeed my morality would > > > > > > not have me make demands) I speak as I will and expect everybody to > > > > > > do the same, this is no demand from me, but me excersing my will. > > > > > > > Are you practicing to run for political office? If you are let me > > > > > > know and > > > > > > I will figure out hoe to register there.. so I can vote for you.. > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 9:56 PM, ornamentalmind > > > > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > > Allan, it was a copy/paste from Lee's post, so question him if you > > > > > > > don't like the words. > > > > > > > > On Aug 10, 9:53 am, allan deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > That is a misquote Orn, it is not a demand or as I read it it > > > > > > > > is not a > > > > > > > > demand, just a statement. > > > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 10, 2011 at 5:05 PM, ornamentalmind > > > > > > > > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > "...I speak as I will and expect everybody to > > > > > > > > > do the same, this is no demand from me,...:" - Lee > > > > > > > > > > Lee, yes it is a demand. Please read it as if someone else > > > > > > > > > wrote it > > > > > > > > > about something you hold dear. The rest is but false choices. > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 10, 3:37 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I really don't get you at times OM. > > > > > > > > > > > I have made no demands apperant or otherwise.(indeed my > > > > > > > > > > morality > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > not have me make demands) I speak as I will and expect > > > > > > > > > > everybody to > > > > > > > > > > do the same, this is no demand from me, but me excersing my > > > > > > > > > > will. > > > > > > > > > > > Yes some people do find vulgar language offensive, I truely > > > > > > > > > > do not > > > > > > > > > > know why, I have simply never done so. I see no logics > > > > > > > > > > attached to > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > it, it is a stance of reactive emotion. > > > > > > > > > > > It is no bad thing also to fly agianst what you call > > > > > > > > > > morality in > > > > > > > > > > general, but I guess you mean social mores et al. Indeed > > > > > > > > > > America had > > > > > > > > > > a civil war because some decided to fly agianst such > > > > > > > > > > morality. > > > > > > > > > > > Yes I do think that most people would rather be swore at > > > > > > > > > > then have > > > > > > > > > > their property stolen or damaged, do you not think the same? > > > > > > > > > > > The latter being not swearing on Google groups? Yes of > > > > > > > > > > course, there > > > > > > > > > > are actions and consequenses. If I take the action of > > > > > > > > > > swearing here > > > > > > > > > > the consequences is nobody see's my post. Elswhere though > > > > > > > > > > yes I will > > > > > > > > > > swear with impunity, and damn if others choose to take > > > > > > > > > > offense or > > > > > > > not. > > > > > > > > > > > The latter being I will not rob or steal, yes indeed, I > > > > > > > > > > will not. > > > > > > > > > > > Can you not see the differance though? > > > > > > > > > > > If I throw out a f***k here or there some may be offended, > > > > > > > > > > but still > > > > > > > > > > have their property intact. > > > > > > > > > > > People are a strange lot, it constantly amazes me what some > > > > > > > > > > choose to > > > > > > > > > > get upset about, but you know I never begrudge them their > > > > > > > > > > freedom to > > > > > > > > > > do so, even if I do not always understand it. > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 9, 5:59 pm, ornamentalmind > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > In short Lee, your apparent demand to be able to say > > > > > > > > > > > words that > > > > > > > offend > > > > > > > > > > > others is a stance that flies against morality in > > > > > > > > > > > general. Of > > > > > > > course, > > > > > > > > > > > we have had these discussions numerous times. You now > > > > > > > > > > > seem to be > > > > > > > > > > > claiming that people’s attachment to property is more > > > > > > > > > > > important > > > > > > > than > > > > > > > > > > > people’s attachment to social niceties. You will comply > > > > > > > > > > > with the > > > > > > > > > > > former and not the latter. Yes, this is true subjectivity! > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 9, 8:16 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay OM I'll play. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Which examples have you for me of my compliantsey? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Morality being wholey subjective indeed I find no > > > > > > > > > > > > immorality with > > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > > > > use of what some would term vulgar language. > > > > > > > > > > > > > My passions are of course neither blind and well > > > > > > > > > > > > thought out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Morality as I say is wholey subjective and so mine says > > > > > > > > > > > > I will > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > take or destroy property that does not belong to me, > > > > > > > > > > > > yes I would > > > > > > > call > > > > > > > > > > > > that a moral stance would you not? > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 9, 4:06 pm, ornamentalmind- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -... > > read more »
