Much the same here Molly. In desperation the other day, Sue put on our Parliament channel. They were showing coverage of our 1974 election for hours. Quite fascinating to us, and perhaps the one other viewer! I often feel that my lifetime of those times ended. I'm a bit like Dawkins on god concepts, though don't like the suppression of other people's data or the importance of 'the dream' or potential resistance to aspects of the evolution machine (much as I can't stand religious machines excusing dire behaviour). In the end, I don't like the way introspective light can end up as a salamander in a hat only available to the introspector. Science has its eternal - Popper's 'World 3' is an example - but such is still amenable to rebellion and doubt that doesn't fall into the trap of doubting everything.
On Friday, 17 October 2014 12:28:02 UTC+1, Molly wrote: > > We are also highly imaginative and self creating. Looking back, it seems > I have lived several different lifetimes, and while there are a few common > threads running between them (that fall along the lines you just laid, > Neil) each of those threads can change radically from phase to phase. > While spirituality with no God would revolutionize how we understand our > eternal aspects (for most) nature's grand design in this life doesn't seem > to include everyone in the world being included at the same time. Rather, > as Allan would suggest, beginning with a smaller group and expanding. The > only thing I can think of that would include the entire globe is some but > not all of our evolutionary biology. With the expansion of global > technology, some of the others may be catching up. While the abilities you > describe are inherent, how they manifest presents myriad and diverse > personalities, viewpoints and lifestyles all over the globe. > > On Thursday, October 16, 2014 6:16:32 PM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >> >> I guess science went pretty mystical with electro-magnetism. A rebellion >> in religion might be to dismiss the need for god/s. One can imagine >> children not being necessary if we could get good at cut and paste life >> construction. It's even possible to think of biological intelligence >> coming to and end. The social is associated with the amygdala and specific >> brain circuits a long way from rational thought. We're examining how new >> scientific understandings of human nature might help us reconceive the >> nature and value of spiritual perspectives, practices and experiences. This >> emerging conception of human nature is radically different from the >> prevailing implicit view, but in public and private life many continue to >> act as if we had not learned anything useful about our brains, behaviour >> and biases in recent years. We therefore need to shed light on our >> typically implicit and often erroneous theories of human nature. >> >> I would turn away from ancient text and to the 21st century view of human >> nature is richer and more complex. We are >> >> Constituted by evolutionary biology >> Embedded in complex social networks >> Largely habitual creatures >> Highly sensitive to social and cultural norms >> More rationalising than rational. >> >> This would be a rebellion in religion and economics. >> >> >> On Thursday, 16 October 2014 20:44:31 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote: >>> >>> Read a bunch of those books 40 years ago, didn't find them that >>> interesting.. I realize that my beliefs are transcendental in nature. I >>> have never really been a believer in mysteries including those of the >>> catholic church. >>> >>> Most of what I read did not create clarity or interest. But by then I >>> had already found the path I choose to walk, for that matter I am still >>> walking it. >>> >>> Allan >>> Living Soul >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 8:31 PM >>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>> >>> Origins are actually mixed up with Hermetic Philosophy dating back to >>> early Egypt with the esoteric traditions. Fourteenth century was their >>> coming out of the closet party. It matters not. >>> >>> On Thursday, October 16, 2014 11:26:26 AM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>> >>>> Rosicrucians were started some time around 1600. Maybe a little >>>> earlier and is German in origin. They created their own story of their >>>> origin. Some people seem to be drawn to mystical societies. There is a >>>> love >>>> for knowledge no one else knows. >>>> >>>> Allan >>>> Living Soul >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Sent: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 5:14 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>> >>>> I thought they were early 20th century. There are some round here, >>>> referred to as 'Goat Heads'. Some claim links to the Pharohs and eastern >>>> mysticism. >>>> >>>> On Thursday, 16 October 2014 15:57:21 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I think its era of secrecy was to avoid the Inquisition. Because I >>>>> was able to find a wealth of information on it, I doubt it is secret >>>>> anymore. But we could both be wrong. Or we could both be right. >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, October 16, 2014 10:40:00 AM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Since when did God need a secret society to reveal what is not hidden? >>>>>> Since creation is made from divine essence (Hindu's uncreated being) >>>>>> there is no separation to start with. So there is no need for a secret >>>>>> society to reveal a separation that doesn't exist. >>>>>> Though a common thread of belief is useful why not use the guideline >>>>>> know to all souls? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Allan >>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>> Sent: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 12:42 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>> >>>>>> Indeed, Neil, this is the rebellion that brings along with it the >>>>>> promise of heaven on earth. "Believe me that I am in the Father, and >>>>>> the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." The >>>>>> Rosicrucians created a religions sect based on crossing that threshold >>>>>> of >>>>>> separation. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thursday, October 16, 2014 5:25:59 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mastering the obvious might be one of the skills. Under the radar >>>>>>> feels as right as pablum and naked clothing. The Stoics had good >>>>>>> arguments >>>>>>> against slavery - the speed of the spiritual can seem slow. I've been >>>>>>> thinking quite a lot about the 'social model of disability' of late - >>>>>>> odd >>>>>>> in a way as I don't think it works for disability. The idea in its >>>>>>> strong >>>>>>> sense is that society rather than impairment creates disability. Much >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> be said for this in a weaker form - one only has to think of stairs and >>>>>>> someone in a wheelchair. In a broader sense, we see a lot of disabling >>>>>>> techniques in biological networks - parasites can even cause sterility >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> mushrooms - and even in insect workers there is a caste system based on >>>>>>> aggression (nine levels in some ants) - we see similar in mammals and >>>>>>> humans. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Molly's words are quite brilliant and we should not neglect the >>>>>>> efforts of those who have tried - indeed we could do with much better >>>>>>> understandings of how such as women's equality have come about. The >>>>>>> sword >>>>>>> and musket bit of me might still want a place on Allan's boat. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thermodynamics (in modern form) is really about 'what works and what >>>>>>> won't'. The modern form, in some ways, is a reaction against 'creation >>>>>>> events' to get better understanding of how events are constructed >>>>>>> without >>>>>>> the constraints of big bang. There are attempts to apply this to the >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> we live, to understand the 'flows'. The economics we have is mostly a >>>>>>> block to doing the right things - within it, Allan's plan needs the >>>>>>> ocean >>>>>>> gyres to be full of 'gold' - there was once a project to harvest black >>>>>>> nodules of molybdenum via barges dredging the sea floor. It failed >>>>>>> because >>>>>>> we found cheaper mines on land. Our gyre salvage has no value in >>>>>>> economics >>>>>>> unless we can force the dumpers to pay. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Religion had several rebellions against 'temple money' and blood >>>>>>> debts. The temples have long been banks, increasingly working their >>>>>>> Undead >>>>>>> practices from the shadows. The answer is 'positive money' created for >>>>>>> projects we decide we want to do - though this is all-too-easy to say. >>>>>>> In >>>>>>> the US, this theory is called modern monetary theory (MMT) - the >>>>>>> argument >>>>>>> is more than a century old with little sign of transfer to practice >>>>>>> (time >>>>>>> banks, local economic transfer schemes, Bitcoin, block chain >>>>>>> technology). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Spiritual rebellion might require a rebellion against the old >>>>>>> separation of god from Caesar's world of the coin. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, 15 October 2014 23:07:38 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Master of the obvious. I would say that each of the people >>>>>>>> mentioned gave it a good shot and effected many lives. They each had >>>>>>>> tremendous effects on the same generation. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 5:13:30 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To call for revolution is easy, to create revolution is another. >>>>>>>>> Revolution is change .. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 9:40 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Martin Luther King Jr. called for a revolution of conscience. >>>>>>>>> Grace Lee Boggs, in the end, calls for a revolution of spirit. John >>>>>>>>> Lennon >>>>>>>>> called for a revolution of the mind. I find myself in agreement with >>>>>>>>> all of >>>>>>>>> these. http://youtu.be/SMEgGGnZ43Y >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 1:33:53 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Seek the narrow path which few choose to follow. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Revolution is about change, the media loves the violent variety >>>>>>>>>> as do the politicians & weapons manufactures. No one in power wants >>>>>>>>>> real >>>>>>>>>> change. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The Atlantic ocean is also available for a revolutionary >>>>>>>>>> micro-nation formation. We are talking revolution are we not? >>>>>>>>>> Questions >>>>>>>>>> come to creating a homeland, a self sustaining community with the >>>>>>>>>> ability >>>>>>>>>> to expand, feeding the population, international trade. It seems to >>>>>>>>>> me the >>>>>>>>>> easiest cover that would essentially go unnoticed would be cleaning >>>>>>>>>> up the >>>>>>>>>> ocean gyres. Extremely large ocean barges are available .. It would >>>>>>>>>> not be >>>>>>>>>> difficult to create vertical wind turbines with reef levels for >>>>>>>>>> handling >>>>>>>>>> higher winds speeds, hydroponics for food supply and raising fish >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> commercial trade. If you look at the skycat airship you have a >>>>>>>>>> simple >>>>>>>>>> potential freighter.. Tinnen out of the box. >>>>>>>>>> If you want revolution why not do it under the radar? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 1:06 PM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Religion could not break the spell because, like reason, it is >>>>>>>>>> steeped in duality. Nothing is smashed with a non dual viewpoint, >>>>>>>>>> all is >>>>>>>>>> included, but opposition falls away and with it, what we perceive >>>>>>>>>> to be >>>>>>>>>> fascists. I agree with your observation that much of this is fed >>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>> pablum, in expensive new age emperors clothing. Even that raises the >>>>>>>>>> questions for those who have never considered them. All just sign >>>>>>>>>> posts >>>>>>>>>> along the road. When your step creates the path, you may actually >>>>>>>>>> be on >>>>>>>>>> the path. Don't expect to see a crowd around you. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 5:00:58 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> That would be worth believing in Allan. It's hard to work out >>>>>>>>>>> what rebellion is. I might break into the Freeze art sales event >>>>>>>>>>> in London >>>>>>>>>>> and smash up one of Facil's exhibits in the first of my series of >>>>>>>>>>> Vandal >>>>>>>>>>> Art. This might, in fact, merely be a marketing prank to draw >>>>>>>>>>> attention to >>>>>>>>>>> the Facilitator and increase the price of his stuff. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I've been looking into a weeding robot of late. Brilliant tech >>>>>>>>>>> that embodies the very hard, back-breaking work that requires more >>>>>>>>>>> training >>>>>>>>>>> than most might think for humans to do it. It's hard to retain >>>>>>>>>>> labour for >>>>>>>>>>> such tasks in western agriculture, so the work groups tend to need >>>>>>>>>>> expensive training every year. The real rebellion may come when we >>>>>>>>>>> realise >>>>>>>>>>> most financial and management jobs are already embodied in >>>>>>>>>>> technology - at >>>>>>>>>>> which point we might see the end of the current work ethic. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The danger with higher plane thinking-achievement might be >>>>>>>>>>> described as fascist idolatry - something I also feel on god as >>>>>>>>>>> authority. >>>>>>>>>>> I'm not much convinced by 'introspection to the light' - feels >>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>> 'Chicken Soup for the Soul' too often. Yet doubt easily becomes >>>>>>>>>>> another >>>>>>>>>>> certainty. I'm for some kind of smash up, but this really is just >>>>>>>>>>> vandalism unless we really try to bring something better into >>>>>>>>>>> place. >>>>>>>>>>> Descartes had to say that a beneficent god would take care of us >>>>>>>>>>> while we >>>>>>>>>>> did radical evaluation - the Inquisition was on his back (in >>>>>>>>>>> letters to >>>>>>>>>>> mates he would point to what happened to Galileo and that he would >>>>>>>>>>> fare >>>>>>>>>>> worse as a Frenchman). The current Inquisition is, of course, >>>>>>>>>>> economics. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Christianity (before its modern descent to Xtianity) once >>>>>>>>>>> seriously considered whether Christ owned the clothes he wore >>>>>>>>>>> (Wyclif), a >>>>>>>>>>> very radical question - though even this was subject to political >>>>>>>>>>> machination. Plastic factories sourcing waste material from the >>>>>>>>>>> Pacific >>>>>>>>>>> are some way off. What of our ideology of private ownership when a >>>>>>>>>>> bunch >>>>>>>>>>> of well-armed aliens turn up and tell us they built the planet? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Religion and Reason both give us the problem of authority and >>>>>>>>>>> potential delusion. Who now would go on the streets as wave a flag >>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>> Hitler, the shell-shocked lunatic? People did and we may be doing >>>>>>>>>>> something similar now. Could religion break the spell? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 21:27:04 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I do think there is a true revolution occurring as we right. >>>>>>>>>>>> Creating a new direction. I think they will form small inter >>>>>>>>>>>> connected >>>>>>>>>>>> ¿internet? Working together for common good. There probably will >>>>>>>>>>>> be totally >>>>>>>>>>>> self sustaining probably cleaning up the ocean waste working at >>>>>>>>>>>> balancing >>>>>>>>>>>> the eco systems. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 10:09 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Deconstruction and reconstruction have to go hand in hand - if >>>>>>>>>>>> we have to call them such at all. One of the rebellions I want to >>>>>>>>>>>> see is >>>>>>>>>>>> in our literature. Though art can descend to the likes of >>>>>>>>>>>> London's >>>>>>>>>>>> 'Freeze' art sales (kitsch rules), it has that anything goes >>>>>>>>>>>> potential. >>>>>>>>>>>> Literature is very formulaic at the moment, mostly copies of >>>>>>>>>>>> copies of a >>>>>>>>>>>> forgotten original - much like politics. I'm with Allan on the >>>>>>>>>>>> doing. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 20:49:31 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You are right religion is the basic foundation including all >>>>>>>>>>>>> the superstitions. The source of beliefs really does not matter. >>>>>>>>>>>>> At this >>>>>>>>>>>>> point for the greatest majority of the world's people that is >>>>>>>>>>>>> what they >>>>>>>>>>>>> want. Level 1 believe follow the rules. Level 2 people become >>>>>>>>>>>>> connected >>>>>>>>>>>>> and aware others presence of a power greater than you are. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> How a person responds to the reality of the world in which >>>>>>>>>>>>> they live determines they spiritual development. Often times >>>>>>>>>>>>> people say one >>>>>>>>>>>>> thing then do another. It is the actions that carry weight. What >>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe longer matters. Atheism is a valid spiritual view point. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>>>>>>> A Living Soul >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 5:52 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't go so far as to say we are killing the planet, or >>>>>>>>>>>>> be so bold as to blame one thing like fossil fuel usage on >>>>>>>>>>>>> climate change, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but I do think Naomi has been swept along by a collective >>>>>>>>>>>>> movement away >>>>>>>>>>>>> from top down/bottom up change to something much more integrated. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Human >>>>>>>>>>>>> evolution becoming human being. These surges of collective >>>>>>>>>>>>> movements all >>>>>>>>>>>>> over the world, whether in China or Korea or Italy or New York, >>>>>>>>>>>>> occurring >>>>>>>>>>>>> for various "reasons" are like a pulse through our collective >>>>>>>>>>>>> blood stream. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Have they always been, and we are only now aware of all of them >>>>>>>>>>>>> because of >>>>>>>>>>>>> technology - or are there more than ever? Is the pulse >>>>>>>>>>>>> accelerating? In >>>>>>>>>>>>> my view, our ability to recognize global happenings through >>>>>>>>>>>>> technology >>>>>>>>>>>>> expands our consciousness. But consciousness is. It doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> evolve or >>>>>>>>>>>>> change. We only feel that it does because we apply mental >>>>>>>>>>>>> constructs to >>>>>>>>>>>>> what we recognize in order to analyze, understand and >>>>>>>>>>>>> communicate. Here is >>>>>>>>>>>>> the ought from is. Here, I think, the deconstruction begins. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 10:24:12 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I like the idea in much the same way Molly, perhaps >>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially that of the dross falling away (perhaps from my short >>>>>>>>>>>>>> time in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> foundry work!). Current physics leaves us with 96% 'dark' - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (almost) beyond our senses and geometry, but still works such >>>>>>>>>>>>>> miracles as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> television, with relativity telling us such mundane stuff as how >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a lead >>>>>>>>>>>>>> acid battery produces far more energy than we'd expect from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> standard >>>>>>>>>>>>>> chemistry. This working in action with incomplete and possibly >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrong >>>>>>>>>>>>>> theory in our best areas is much neglected. We know very little >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of social >>>>>>>>>>>>>> organisation (despite reams of literature) and the role of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'constructors' >>>>>>>>>>>>>> across science and society. What we do know is generally >>>>>>>>>>>>>> swamped by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignorance and the need to earn a crust in existing social order. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> say the literature is not a 'how to manual'. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grace asks ' are we prepared to develop a whole new form of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> solidarity economics emphasizing sustainability, mutuality, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> local >>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-reliance?' Scientists have written on this for more than a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> century >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and it comes to a moral head in climate change, pollution and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the cosmology >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of our plight (needs to leave the planet over time, be prepared >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> collisions). The facts have me convinced one can derive an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ought from an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is. Naomi Klein's 'This Changes Everything' has a lot of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> facts. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebellious turn for me would be religion free of what Tom Paine >>>>>>>>>>>>>> complained >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of (superstition), most notably inflicted on us now through >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pseudo-science >>>>>>>>>>>>>> like economics (highly religious in many senses including nine >>>>>>>>>>>>>> versions, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all wrong) riddled with superstition and void of spiritual >>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought >>>>>>>>>>>>>> experiment and experience (data in a sense of what it could be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be human >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or post-human). >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 14:20:06 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You really cover the gamut here, Neil, going round and round >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the nut. Rebellion has been on my mind too lately, as one of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the great >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Detroiters, Grace Lee Boggs, lays in hospice. She spent her >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adult life >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spanning 8 decades organizing social activism locally in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Detroit and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nationally for many movements, civil rights and women's rights >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> among them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was excited to receive an award last month because she was on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the agenda >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to receive a lifetime achievement award also but she sent a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> representative >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and her announcement came shortly afterward. Her story is quite >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the deeper one digs into it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Toward the end of her life she leaned less toward civil >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disobedience and more toward spiritual coherence of groups, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quietly leading local groups to greater organization and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> standards of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> living. For me, her movement to peaceful rebellion was key as I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> moved thusly when called to do so. Working "with" not against >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebellion means organizing through the deconstruction, seeing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> past the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chaos and predatory participants that inevitably enter into the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fray. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Moving in spirit during rebellion gets past the right and wrong >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and into an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vision of peak organization for the group. The movement is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> movement toward >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the vision for everyone. A great deal of rubbish falls away in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the process. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From my view, religion supports individuals and groups by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lending a structure to the seeking, until seeking is no longer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessary. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 7:30:31 AM UTC-4, archytas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The 'Putinography' was subject to ridicule on our satirical >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> show 'Have I Got News For You'. I have never been able to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> feel, say, Allan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or Molly's religion or god, though I'm not really atheist, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> even if that's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the answer I'd give on a survey. I don't get art with, say, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Facil's eye >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either, and in science and maths know I don't visualise well >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but do sense >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> patterns and have an almost religious demand for evidence - to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the extent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd say there is almost none in our courtrooms or what passes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for public >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scrutiny. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rebellion interests me firstly in the sense of its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existence before the human mind. Even ants 'rebel' against >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their captors, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> killing their young, sometimes fighting against superior >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> weapons technology >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (most slavers have mandibles like swords). The rebellion is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom for the individual ants but their species. The rebels >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will die, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but their species may prosper from the reduced slaving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> population. We tend >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to metaphors like 'co-evolution' and 'arms' races' in biology, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but these >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are inadequate, transferring the all-too-human. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Religion, stripped of its institutionalism and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rationalisation, seems a rebellion to peace and in and against >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nature at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same time. It is against self whilst also >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-development. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> language is almost impossible as we have barely learned the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ambiguity and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parochiality of language and are confused on originality. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mimicry is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everywhere in nature - ants pretending to be spiders, spiders >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and beetles >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pretending to be ants - politicians pretending to be other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than puppets of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shadow control. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 October 2014 19:51:39 UTC+1, facilitator >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe some of this. However I deviate in that I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe churches are for the individual to hide among or be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> counted in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> group. This is even more true of the priest, Rabbi, Imam, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. Saying >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are for the masses requires a much wider brush that I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can't paint >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> liberally with. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 13, 2014 12:27:43 PM UTC-4, Allan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heretic wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Churches are for basically for the masses .. There is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basic need to believe or explain the unknown. Transition >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into spirituality >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not take much. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Common religious views are a starting point from which to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> build ones spiritual view and experience. Within Catholicism >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically 3 levels of spirituality. The first level , >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe God is real >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> go to church follow the rules. The second level is where >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people become >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aware of the presence of God, with him becoming a major part >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lives, with experiences like Molly spoke of not being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> uncommon. Theses >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experiences being a driving force. The Third level the roll >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the church >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changes from spiritual guide to one of an observer and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scribe. At this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level these people are no longer the ' churches ' problem >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but that of God. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The official church very much likes these people as part of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the church, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing assistance when possible. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many centuries of observation allows the church to easily >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recognize the different levels. It really is an interesting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> source of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> study. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The English are among the greatest slavers in the world.. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Followed closely by islam. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've done much of the magic in the secret society bit (in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what was once Zaire). My friend (a tribal chief) and I were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to repeat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the magic in my university office. Sadly, I get rather the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reverse >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience of Molly in our churches. Jean-Claude was a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thorough-going >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marxist, though detested the Lenin-Mao lines. I tend to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anarchist-mutualism myself and am never sure about Molly's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher plane - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my sense is it emerges from the material conditions of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibility. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sleeping near ants is not recommended. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking of the potentials of religion to free us >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from biological structuration, perhaps in the sense of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> poison-cure. It >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has both higher plane experience and chronic rationalisation >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - the latter, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say, in jihad, crusades and the ant-like 'let's kill the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yazidi and steal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their women' (or Numbers 31). Many of our terms have this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pharmikon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> status, though we allow them to dominate in 'good' form - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> education, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government, freedom ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John Brown is often presented as a deluded religionist, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but at least wasn't talking western philosophy at the top >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> table of a slave >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> economy. Religion these days seems silent on material >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> matters. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 October 2014 14:16:26 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose that it does provide a place to hide in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community from the mundane and economic realities of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lower and middle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> classes if one is necessary. I've always found a church >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> community to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide its own cultural limitations based on what all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> human groups offer, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not much insight into faith or support in crisis of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faith. At the head >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of each church is a human being, struggling as we all do to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make sense of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it all. The tone of this culture depends invariable on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tone of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leader and they deviate more or less from the greater >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> church dictates. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mass itself is little more than a ritual although once >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understood as a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> process to higher consciousness, can take you there, I've >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experienced it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not just in a Catholic mass. Participating tribal >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ritual drumming can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lead to ecstasies. Much if not all of this is lost on most >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> congregations, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in my experience. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 13, 2014 7:03:02 AM UTC-4, archytas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many of our terms for freedom have religious origin in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the rough phrase 'freedom from debt' - more and much wider >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than than Xtian >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kicking over the tables of the money-lenders. There have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been many debt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jubilees in history, often on the death of a 'king'. Debt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slavery is and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has been much wider in human communities than most seem to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know. We are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not widely informed on biology and anthropology in this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regard. Religion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can raise the best and worst in us. Much of it raises the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notion of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adherents as some kind of chosen people, sometimes >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> restricted to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in-group blood line. The Yazidi are such an example. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chimps seem to have a form of 'religion' connected with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the seasons - as many of our belief systems. I saw >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> footage of some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> southeast Asian spiders this morning - they lay eggs in a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> central tower >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounded by a henge - immediately bringing Stonehenge to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my mind, though >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they don't hack stones to shape. Religion raises Facil's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'we might both >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (all) be wrong' phrase to my mind, something often missing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in our argument >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite knowledge that we can make many equally powerful >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arguments about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same stuff (Sextus Empiricus). To judge between >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arguments we need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something mystical (religious). I say this as a scientist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowing magic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wands don't work. Religion could be rebellion, a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postmodern moment, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oversimplifying to the extreme, of incredulity towards >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metanarratives like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government, law and economics - a dreamtime against >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> material and spiritual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> debt-rules. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Black holes have recently become 'grey', but dreamtime >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might challenge the geometry we use. Global warming and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much else on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pollution challenges us to think 'This Changes Everything' >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Naomi Klein) - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the economics of 'we can never afford to do the right >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things' in my view. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So what does religion offer on the postmodern moment of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebellion? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> >>>> --- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> -- >>> >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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