There are various factions now and they say stuff like 'although we might enrich the whole world, and endue them with learning, and might release it from innumerable miseries, yet shall we never be manifested and made known unto any man, ...' bat guano basically. The German guy sounds like a Nietzschean character, trips off east and no one believes him on return.
It's quite likely, on the basis of mice experiments, that we are distracted and altered by current high information environments from social cooperation. Collections of teenagers with mobile phones barely look human and angry birds populate their higher consciousness. This is our fault. The docility of the young, despite their petty tantrums, is scary. On Thursday, 16 October 2014 16:26:26 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote: > > Rosicrucians were started some time around 1600. Maybe a little earlier > and is German in origin. They created their own story of their origin. Some > people seem to be drawn to mystical societies. There is a love for > knowledge no one else knows. > > Allan > Living Soul > > -----Original Message----- > From: archytas <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 5:14 PM > Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion > > I thought they were early 20th century. There are some round here, > referred to as 'Goat Heads'. Some claim links to the Pharohs and eastern > mysticism. > > On Thursday, 16 October 2014 15:57:21 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >> >> I think its era of secrecy was to avoid the Inquisition. Because I was >> able to find a wealth of information on it, I doubt it is secret anymore. >> But we could both be wrong. Or we could both be right. >> >> On Thursday, October 16, 2014 10:40:00 AM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >>> >>> Since when did God need a secret society to reveal what is not hidden? >>> Since creation is made from divine essence (Hindu's uncreated being) >>> there is no separation to start with. So there is no need for a secret >>> society to reveal a separation that doesn't exist. >>> Though a common thread of belief is useful why not use the guideline >>> know to all souls? >>> >>> >>> Allan >>> Living Soul >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Thu, 16 Oct 2014 12:42 PM >>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>> >>> Indeed, Neil, this is the rebellion that brings along with it the >>> promise of heaven on earth. "Believe me that I am in the Father, and >>> the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake." The >>> Rosicrucians created a religions sect based on crossing that threshold of >>> separation. >>> >>> On Thursday, October 16, 2014 5:25:59 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>> >>>> Mastering the obvious might be one of the skills. Under the radar >>>> feels as right as pablum and naked clothing. The Stoics had good >>>> arguments >>>> against slavery - the speed of the spiritual can seem slow. I've been >>>> thinking quite a lot about the 'social model of disability' of late - odd >>>> in a way as I don't think it works for disability. The idea in its strong >>>> sense is that society rather than impairment creates disability. Much to >>>> be said for this in a weaker form - one only has to think of stairs and >>>> someone in a wheelchair. In a broader sense, we see a lot of disabling >>>> techniques in biological networks - parasites can even cause sterility in >>>> mushrooms - and even in insect workers there is a caste system based on >>>> aggression (nine levels in some ants) - we see similar in mammals and >>>> humans. >>>> >>>> Molly's words are quite brilliant and we should not neglect the efforts >>>> of those who have tried - indeed we could do with much better >>>> understandings of how such as women's equality have come about. The sword >>>> and musket bit of me might still want a place on Allan's boat. >>>> >>>> Thermodynamics (in modern form) is really about 'what works and what >>>> won't'. The modern form, in some ways, is a reaction against 'creation >>>> events' to get better understanding of how events are constructed without >>>> the constraints of big bang. There are attempts to apply this to the way >>>> we live, to understand the 'flows'. The economics we have is mostly a >>>> block to doing the right things - within it, Allan's plan needs the ocean >>>> gyres to be full of 'gold' - there was once a project to harvest black >>>> nodules of molybdenum via barges dredging the sea floor. It failed >>>> because >>>> we found cheaper mines on land. Our gyre salvage has no value in >>>> economics >>>> unless we can force the dumpers to pay. >>>> >>>> Religion had several rebellions against 'temple money' and blood debts. >>>> The temples have long been banks, increasingly working their Undead >>>> practices from the shadows. The answer is 'positive money' created for >>>> projects we decide we want to do - though this is all-too-easy to say. In >>>> the US, this theory is called modern monetary theory (MMT) - the argument >>>> is more than a century old with little sign of transfer to practice (time >>>> banks, local economic transfer schemes, Bitcoin, block chain technology). >>>> >>>> Spiritual rebellion might require a rebellion against the old >>>> separation of god from Caesar's world of the coin. >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, 15 October 2014 23:07:38 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Master of the obvious. I would say that each of the people mentioned >>>>> gave it a good shot and effected many lives. They each had tremendous >>>>> effects on the same generation. >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 5:13:30 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> To call for revolution is easy, to create revolution is another. >>>>>> Revolution is change .. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Allan >>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>> Sent: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 9:40 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>> >>>>>> Martin Luther King Jr. called for a revolution of conscience. Grace >>>>>> Lee Boggs, in the end, calls for a revolution of spirit. John Lennon >>>>>> called >>>>>> for a revolution of the mind. I find myself in agreement with all of >>>>>> these. >>>>>> http://youtu.be/SMEgGGnZ43Y >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 1:33:53 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Seek the narrow path which few choose to follow. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Revolution is about change, the media loves the violent variety as >>>>>>> do the politicians & weapons manufactures. No one in power wants real >>>>>>> change. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Atlantic ocean is also available for a revolutionary >>>>>>> micro-nation formation. We are talking revolution are we not? Questions >>>>>>> come to creating a homeland, a self sustaining community with the >>>>>>> ability >>>>>>> to expand, feeding the population, international trade. It seems to me >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> easiest cover that would essentially go unnoticed would be cleaning up >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> ocean gyres. Extremely large ocean barges are available .. It would not >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> difficult to create vertical wind turbines with reef levels for >>>>>>> handling >>>>>>> higher winds speeds, hydroponics for food supply and raising fish for >>>>>>> commercial trade. If you look at the skycat airship you have a simple >>>>>>> potential freighter.. Tinnen out of the box. >>>>>>> If you want revolution why not do it under the radar? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>> Sent: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 1:06 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Religion could not break the spell because, like reason, it is >>>>>>> steeped in duality. Nothing is smashed with a non dual viewpoint, all >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> included, but opposition falls away and with it, what we perceive to >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> fascists. I agree with your observation that much of this is fed like >>>>>>> pablum, in expensive new age emperors clothing. Even that raises the >>>>>>> questions for those who have never considered them. All just sign posts >>>>>>> along the road. When your step creates the path, you may actually be >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> the path. Don't expect to see a crowd around you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, October 15, 2014 5:00:58 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That would be worth believing in Allan. It's hard to work out what >>>>>>>> rebellion is. I might break into the Freeze art sales event in London >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> smash up one of Facil's exhibits in the first of my series of Vandal >>>>>>>> Art. >>>>>>>> This might, in fact, merely be a marketing prank to draw attention to >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> Facilitator and increase the price of his stuff. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've been looking into a weeding robot of late. Brilliant tech >>>>>>>> that embodies the very hard, back-breaking work that requires more >>>>>>>> training >>>>>>>> than most might think for humans to do it. It's hard to retain labour >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> such tasks in western agriculture, so the work groups tend to need >>>>>>>> expensive training every year. The real rebellion may come when we >>>>>>>> realise >>>>>>>> most financial and management jobs are already embodied in technology >>>>>>>> - at >>>>>>>> which point we might see the end of the current work ethic. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The danger with higher plane thinking-achievement might be >>>>>>>> described as fascist idolatry - something I also feel on god as >>>>>>>> authority. >>>>>>>> I'm not much convinced by 'introspection to the light' - feels like >>>>>>>> 'Chicken Soup for the Soul' too often. Yet doubt easily becomes >>>>>>>> another >>>>>>>> certainty. I'm for some kind of smash up, but this really is just >>>>>>>> vandalism unless we really try to bring something better into place. >>>>>>>> Descartes had to say that a beneficent god would take care of us >>>>>>>> while we >>>>>>>> did radical evaluation - the Inquisition was on his back (in letters >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> mates he would point to what happened to Galileo and that he would >>>>>>>> fare >>>>>>>> worse as a Frenchman). The current Inquisition is, of course, >>>>>>>> economics. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Christianity (before its modern descent to Xtianity) once seriously >>>>>>>> considered whether Christ owned the clothes he wore (Wyclif), a very >>>>>>>> radical question - though even this was subject to political >>>>>>>> machination. >>>>>>>> Plastic factories sourcing waste material from the Pacific are some >>>>>>>> way >>>>>>>> off. What of our ideology of private ownership when a bunch of >>>>>>>> well-armed >>>>>>>> aliens turn up and tell us they built the planet? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Religion and Reason both give us the problem of authority and >>>>>>>> potential delusion. Who now would go on the streets as wave a flag >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> Hitler, the shell-shocked lunatic? People did and we may be doing >>>>>>>> something similar now. Could religion break the spell? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 21:27:04 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I do think there is a true revolution occurring as we right. >>>>>>>>> Creating a new direction. I think they will form small inter >>>>>>>>> connected >>>>>>>>> ¿internet? Working together for common good. There probably will be >>>>>>>>> totally >>>>>>>>> self sustaining probably cleaning up the ocean waste working at >>>>>>>>> balancing >>>>>>>>> the eco systems. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>> Sent: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 10:09 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Deconstruction and reconstruction have to go hand in hand - if we >>>>>>>>> have to call them such at all. One of the rebellions I want to see >>>>>>>>> is in >>>>>>>>> our literature. Though art can descend to the likes of London's >>>>>>>>> 'Freeze' >>>>>>>>> art sales (kitsch rules), it has that anything goes potential. >>>>>>>>> Literature >>>>>>>>> is very formulaic at the moment, mostly copies of copies of a >>>>>>>>> forgotten >>>>>>>>> original - much like politics. I'm with Allan on the doing. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 20:49:31 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You are right religion is the basic foundation including all the >>>>>>>>>> superstitions. The source of beliefs really does not matter. At this >>>>>>>>>> point >>>>>>>>>> for the greatest majority of the world's people that is what they >>>>>>>>>> want. >>>>>>>>>> Level 1 believe follow the rules. Level 2 people become connected >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> aware others presence of a power greater than you are. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> How a person responds to the reality of the world in which they >>>>>>>>>> live determines they spiritual development. Often times people say >>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> thing then do another. It is the actions that carry weight. What >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> believe longer matters. Atheism is a valid spiritual view point. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>>>> A Living Soul >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 5:52 PM >>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I wouldn't go so far as to say we are killing the planet, or be >>>>>>>>>> so bold as to blame one thing like fossil fuel usage on climate >>>>>>>>>> change, but >>>>>>>>>> I do think Naomi has been swept along by a collective movement away >>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>> top down/bottom up change to something much more integrated. Human >>>>>>>>>> evolution becoming human being. These surges of collective >>>>>>>>>> movements all >>>>>>>>>> over the world, whether in China or Korea or Italy or New York, >>>>>>>>>> occurring >>>>>>>>>> for various "reasons" are like a pulse through our collective blood >>>>>>>>>> stream. >>>>>>>>>> Have they always been, and we are only now aware of all of them >>>>>>>>>> because of >>>>>>>>>> technology - or are there more than ever? Is the pulse >>>>>>>>>> accelerating? In >>>>>>>>>> my view, our ability to recognize global happenings through >>>>>>>>>> technology >>>>>>>>>> expands our consciousness. But consciousness is. It doesn't evolve >>>>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>>>> change. We only feel that it does because we apply mental >>>>>>>>>> constructs to >>>>>>>>>> what we recognize in order to analyze, understand and communicate. >>>>>>>>>> Here is >>>>>>>>>> the ought from is. Here, I think, the deconstruction begins. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 10:24:12 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I like the idea in much the same way Molly, perhaps especially >>>>>>>>>>> that of the dross falling away (perhaps from my short time in >>>>>>>>>>> foundry >>>>>>>>>>> work!). Current physics leaves us with 96% 'dark' - something >>>>>>>>>>> (almost) >>>>>>>>>>> beyond our senses and geometry, but still works such miracles as >>>>>>>>>>> television, with relativity telling us such mundane stuff as how a >>>>>>>>>>> lead >>>>>>>>>>> acid battery produces far more energy than we'd expect from >>>>>>>>>>> standard >>>>>>>>>>> chemistry. This working in action with incomplete and possibly >>>>>>>>>>> wrong >>>>>>>>>>> theory in our best areas is much neglected. We know very little of >>>>>>>>>>> social >>>>>>>>>>> organisation (despite reams of literature) and the role of >>>>>>>>>>> 'constructors' >>>>>>>>>>> across science and society. What we do know is generally swamped >>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>> ignorance and the need to earn a crust in existing social order. I >>>>>>>>>>> have to >>>>>>>>>>> say the literature is not a 'how to manual'. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Grace asks ' are we prepared to develop a whole new form of >>>>>>>>>>> solidarity economics emphasizing sustainability, mutuality, and >>>>>>>>>>> local >>>>>>>>>>> self-reliance?' Scientists have written on this for more than a >>>>>>>>>>> century >>>>>>>>>>> and it comes to a moral head in climate change, pollution and the >>>>>>>>>>> cosmology >>>>>>>>>>> of our plight (needs to leave the planet over time, be prepared for >>>>>>>>>>> collisions). The facts have me convinced one can derive an ought >>>>>>>>>>> from an >>>>>>>>>>> is. Naomi Klein's 'This Changes Everything' has a lot of the >>>>>>>>>>> facts. The >>>>>>>>>>> rebellious turn for me would be religion free of what Tom Paine >>>>>>>>>>> complained >>>>>>>>>>> of (superstition), most notably inflicted on us now through >>>>>>>>>>> pseudo-science >>>>>>>>>>> like economics (highly religious in many senses including nine >>>>>>>>>>> versions, >>>>>>>>>>> all wrong) riddled with superstition and void of spiritual thought >>>>>>>>>>> experiment and experience (data in a sense of what it could be to >>>>>>>>>>> be human >>>>>>>>>>> or post-human). >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 14 October 2014 14:20:06 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> You really cover the gamut here, Neil, going round and round >>>>>>>>>>>> the nut. Rebellion has been on my mind too lately, as one of the >>>>>>>>>>>> great >>>>>>>>>>>> Detroiters, Grace Lee Boggs, lays in hospice. She spent her adult >>>>>>>>>>>> life >>>>>>>>>>>> spanning 8 decades organizing social activism locally in Detroit >>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>> nationally for many movements, civil rights and women's rights >>>>>>>>>>>> among them. >>>>>>>>>>>> I was excited to receive an award last month because she was on >>>>>>>>>>>> the agenda >>>>>>>>>>>> to receive a lifetime achievement award also but she sent a >>>>>>>>>>>> representative >>>>>>>>>>>> and her announcement came shortly afterward. Her story is quite >>>>>>>>>>>> interesting >>>>>>>>>>>> the deeper one digs into it. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Toward the end of her life she leaned less toward civil >>>>>>>>>>>> disobedience and more toward spiritual coherence of groups, >>>>>>>>>>>> actively and >>>>>>>>>>>> quietly leading local groups to greater organization and standards >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> living. For me, her movement to peaceful rebellion was key as I >>>>>>>>>>>> have always >>>>>>>>>>>> moved thusly when called to do so. Working "with" not against in a >>>>>>>>>>>> rebellion means organizing through the deconstruction, seeing past >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> chaos and predatory participants that inevitably enter into the >>>>>>>>>>>> fray. >>>>>>>>>>>> Moving in spirit during rebellion gets past the right and wrong >>>>>>>>>>>> and into an >>>>>>>>>>>> vision of peak organization for the group. The movement is >>>>>>>>>>>> movement toward >>>>>>>>>>>> the vision for everyone. A great deal of rubbish falls away in >>>>>>>>>>>> the process. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From my view, religion supports individuals and groups by >>>>>>>>>>>> lending a structure to the seeking, until seeking is no longer >>>>>>>>>>>> necessary. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 14, 2014 7:30:31 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The 'Putinography' was subject to ridicule on our satirical >>>>>>>>>>>>> show 'Have I Got News For You'. I have never been able to feel, >>>>>>>>>>>>> say, Allan >>>>>>>>>>>>> or Molly's religion or god, though I'm not really atheist, even >>>>>>>>>>>>> if that's >>>>>>>>>>>>> the answer I'd give on a survey. I don't get art with, say, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Facil's eye >>>>>>>>>>>>> either, and in science and maths know I don't visualise well but >>>>>>>>>>>>> do sense >>>>>>>>>>>>> patterns and have an almost religious demand for evidence - to >>>>>>>>>>>>> the extent >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd say there is almost none in our courtrooms or what passes for >>>>>>>>>>>>> public >>>>>>>>>>>>> scrutiny. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Rebellion interests me firstly in the sense of its existence >>>>>>>>>>>>> before the human mind. Even ants 'rebel' against their captors, >>>>>>>>>>>>> killing >>>>>>>>>>>>> their young, sometimes fighting against superior weapons >>>>>>>>>>>>> technology (most >>>>>>>>>>>>> slavers have mandibles like swords). The rebellion is not about >>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom >>>>>>>>>>>>> for the individual ants but their species. The rebels will die, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but their >>>>>>>>>>>>> species may prosper from the reduced slaving population. We tend >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> metaphors like 'co-evolution' and 'arms' races' in biology, but >>>>>>>>>>>>> these are >>>>>>>>>>>>> inadequate, transferring the all-too-human. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Religion, stripped of its institutionalism and >>>>>>>>>>>>> rationalisation, seems a rebellion to peace and in and against >>>>>>>>>>>>> nature at >>>>>>>>>>>>> the same time. It is against self whilst also self-development. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>> language is almost impossible as we have barely learned the >>>>>>>>>>>>> ambiguity and >>>>>>>>>>>>> parochiality of language and are confused on originality. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Mimicry is >>>>>>>>>>>>> everywhere in nature - ants pretending to be spiders, spiders and >>>>>>>>>>>>> beetles >>>>>>>>>>>>> pretending to be ants - politicians pretending to be other than >>>>>>>>>>>>> puppets of >>>>>>>>>>>>> shadow control. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 October 2014 19:51:39 UTC+1, facilitator wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I believe some of this. However I deviate in that I believe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> churches are for the individual to hide among or be counted in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is even more true of the priest, Rabbi, Imam, etc. Saying >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the masses requires a much wider brush that I can't paint >>>>>>>>>>>>>> liberally >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 13, 2014 12:27:43 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Churches are for basically for the masses .. There is a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basic need to believe or explain the unknown. Transition into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spirituality >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not take much. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Common religious views are a starting point from which to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> build ones spiritual view and experience. Within Catholicism >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> basically 3 levels of spirituality. The first level , believe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God is real >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> go to church follow the rules. The second level is where people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> become >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aware of the presence of God, with him becoming a major part of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> lives, with experiences like Molly spoke of not being uncommon. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Theses >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experiences being a driving force. The Third level the roll of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the church >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> changes from spiritual guide to one of an observer and scribe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> At this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level these people are no longer the ' churches ' problem but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that of God. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The official church very much likes these people as part of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> church, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> providing assistance when possible. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many centuries of observation allows the church to easily >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> recognize the different levels. It really is an interesting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> source of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> study. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The English are among the greatest slavers in the world.. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Followed closely by islam. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Mon, 13 Oct 2014 4:18 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Religion as rebellion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've done much of the magic in the secret society bit (in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what was once Zaire). My friend (a tribal chief) and I were >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to repeat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the magic in my university office. Sadly, I get rather the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reverse >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience of Molly in our churches. Jean-Claude was a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thorough-going >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Marxist, though detested the Lenin-Mao lines. I tend to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anarchist-mutualism myself and am never sure about Molly's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> higher plane - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my sense is it emerges from the material conditions of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibility. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sleeping near ants is not recommended. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was thinking of the potentials of religion to free us from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> biological structuration, perhaps in the sense of a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> poison-cure. It has >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both higher plane experience and chronic rationalisation - the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> latter, say, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in jihad, crusades and the ant-like 'let's kill the Yazidi and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> steal their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> women' (or Numbers 31). Many of our terms have this pharmikon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> status, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though we allow them to dominate in 'good' form - education, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freedom ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John Brown is often presented as a deluded religionist, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least wasn't talking western philosophy at the top table of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a slave >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> economy. Religion these days seems silent on material matters. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 13 October 2014 14:16:26 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I suppose that it does provide a place to hide in community >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the mundane and economic realities of the lower and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> middle classes if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one is necessary. I've always found a church community to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> provide its own >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cultural limitations based on what all human groups offer, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> insight into faith or support in crisis of faith. At the head >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of each >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> church is a human being, struggling as we all do to make sense >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of it all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The tone of this culture depends invariable on the tone of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> leader and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they deviate more or less from the greater church dictates. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mass itself is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> little more than a ritual although once understood as a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> process to higher >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consciousness, can take you there, I've experienced it, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not just in a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Catholic mass. Participating tribal ritual drumming can lead >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to ecstasies. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Much if not all of this is lost on most congregations, in my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> experience. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 13, 2014 7:03:02 AM UTC-4, archytas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many of our terms for freedom have religious origin in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rough phrase 'freedom from debt' - more and much wider than >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than Xtian >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kicking over the tables of the money-lenders. There have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been many debt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jubilees in history, often on the death of a 'king'. Debt >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slavery is and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has been much wider in human communities than most seem to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> know. We are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not widely informed on biology and anthropology in this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regard. Religion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can raise the best and worst in us. Much of it raises the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notion of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> adherents as some kind of chosen people, sometimes restricted >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in-group blood line. The Yazidi are such an example. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chimps seem to have a form of 'religion' connected with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the seasons - as many of our belief systems. I saw footage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of some >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> southeast Asian spiders this morning - they lay eggs in a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> central tower >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> surrounded by a henge - immediately bringing Stonehenge to my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mind, though >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they don't hack stones to shape. Religion raises Facil's 'we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might both >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (all) be wrong' phrase to my mind, something often missing in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> our argument >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite knowledge that we can make many equally powerful >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arguments about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the same stuff (Sextus Empiricus). To judge between >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arguments we need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something mystical (religious). I say this as a scientist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowing magic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wands don't work. Religion could be rebellion, a postmodern >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> moment, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oversimplifying to the extreme, of incredulity towards >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metanarratives like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> government, law and economics - a dreamtime against material >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and spiritual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> debt-rules. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Black holes have recently become 'grey', but dreamtime >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might challenge the geometry we use. Global warming and much >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> else on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pollution challenges us to think 'This Changes Everything' >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Naomi Klein) - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the economics of 'we can never afford to do the right things' >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in my view. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So what does religion offer on the postmodern moment of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebellion? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> -- >>> >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> -- > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > ""Minds Eye"" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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